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      AmigaOS 4  
pjsWhy is IBrowse so good?20101219 02:58
Just watching the thread about the use IBrowse with Amigans, I wonder if
we can quanitfy what it is that makes IBrowse so special?

I use IB everyday. It is easily my browser of choice. I grit my teeth if
I ever have to use FF on my Mac. What makes Ibrowse so much better to use?

I guess I can start this listing with what I like about IBrowse:
  • Responsiveness - You click and it reacts (as long as it isn't hung
    on some javascript somewhere). It's always ready to be jump or be
    interrupted to serve you.
  • Lightweight - It starts in an instant. Loading <2MB of IBrowse vs.
    18 MB of OWB or <75 MB of Timberwolf makes it a breeze.
  • Configurable - There's not much more I'd want from a browser in terms
    of configuration... tabs, fastlink buttons, FAB menus, MIME types,
    ARexx interaction, URL-specific tweaks, etc.
  • Trustworthy - since the whole thing was written by users, for users;
    I have much less feeling my browser is betraying me to the scumbags
    of the Internet.

Now all of this is great. Invaluable, even. But it all doesn't fix that
the development of Ibrowse has... ahem... "fallen off the pace". We do need
CSS, DOM and who knows what else these days.

To the authors/developers/porters of OWB, Netsurf and Timberwolf, my thanks
go to you. Where IBrowse development hasn't kept up, your efforts have
let me use my Amigas to surf the web... frequently better than my inane Mac.

Maybe the content of this thread might help identify the things other Amiga
browsers need to get to the level of user-friendliness (???) of IBrowse?

What is that makes IBrowse so good use ??

PJS

PS - and yes, I'd rather see IBrowse 3.0 anyday before touching my Mac again.

:-)

Navigate: 1-20 21-40 41-48 
hotrodRe: Why is IBrowse so good?20101219 03:28  #280
@pjs

What you've listed is pretty much what I like about IBrowse too :-) . It's a good download-manager. Bookmarks are easily handled. I guess that things like drag-n-drop are only possible with MUI at the moment but it really helps and lets you re-arrange tabs, drag tabs or URL to a fastlink-button etc.

I think that sums it up + the things allready listed by you. At the moment NetSurf is my second choise, then OWB and last Timberwolf but this will most likely change if OWB-MUI is ported and when Timberwolf 4.0 is released.

Still I would prefer IBrowse 3.0 over any browser.
PhantomRe: Why is IBrowse so good?20101219 09:14  #285
@hotrod

I was wondering why iBrowse dev-team don't give the sources to the public. Thus it will be more easy to have an updated iBrowse to use modern standards or fixing some bugs too. Let iBrowse be free-sourced then, I believe someone will get to handle with it.
VooDooRe: Why is IBrowse so good?20101219 09:44  #287
@Phantom

The same question from me ? IBrowse was "finished" product, it should only regularly updated .. As already stated it would be easier if the source was released to the public ..
ChrisHRe: Why is IBrowse so good?20101219 11:53  #300
@pjs
Lightweight - It starts in an instant.

IBrowse start time = 1.3 seconds.
OWB start time = 2.4 seconds.

The difference (about 1 second) seems negligible to me. To be honest I couldn't notice the start-up speed difference, without measuring.

Responsiveness - You click and it reacts

OWB seems just as reponsive to me. [Unless you are on a page with complex CSS/etc, which IBrowse will just ignore (so the comparison would not be fair in that case).]

I tried measuring the "responsiveness". I emptied caches, went to AW.net home page, wait for everything to finish loading, and then timed clicking on a particular thread, up to the whole page being visible (not necessarily finished though) :

IBrowse response time = 1.6 seconds
OWB response time = 2.4 seconds

I then repeated the test, but this time with the pages already in the cache:

IBrowse response time = 1.3 seconds
OWB response time = 1.5 seconds

Overall I'd say, yes, IBrowse is a little more responsive, but it's not night vs day. And BTW during these tests, IBrowse crashed on me (during start-up & quitting) several times, while OWB didn't crash once.

And it goes without saying that scrolling, text highlighting, etc are just as fast in OWB as in IBrowse.

About the only thing I actually notice IBrowse being significantly more responsive is while the page is still loading images/etc. IBrowse is completely smooth here, while OWB judders a bit with each image being added.

Trustworthy - since the whole thing was written by users, for users; I have much less feeling my browser is betraying me to the scumbags of the Internet.

That doesn't make sense. If anything, IBrowse was mostly written by only 1-2 people (who may be ignorant of some security issues), while OWB's WebKit engine was written a large number of people (many of whom will be knowledgable on security).
poweramigaRe: Why is IBrowse so good?20101219 12:09  #301
@VooDoo

I still say Ibrowse is the best browser ive ever used :) maybe we are biased but i dont think so
amigo1Re: Why is IBrowse so good?20101219 14:41  #302
@ChrisH

I can confirm most of your times:

IBrowse start time = 1.07 seconds.
OWB start time = 1.92 seconds.

on first load of a website
IBrowse response time = 2.7 seconds
OWB response time = 5.1 seconds

after website was in cache
IBrowse response time = 1.9 seconds
OWB response time = 2.4 seconds

I waited till the sites finished loading.

Same sites on MBP 2,4 GHz and Safari, but did not bother to empty the cache

1.42 seconds

all times are average times
magicRe: Why is IBrowse so good?20101219 17:54  #308
Im sorry, but these start times would be increased if Ibrowse were to support modern day browser features. So really, its pointless saying ibrowse is better because its simply not.

pjsRe: Why is IBrowse so good?20101219 18:00  #309
@Phantom

It's hard to read someone's mind why no decision has ever been made to give
away IBrowse... As source code or whatever. Certainly, it's not making
money to pay for any serious development. Did it ever pay for itself?

On the other hand, it is the property of its developers and they have the
right to do with as they want. I have no question about that. Maybe some
day they'll get back into a big push?

But I'd suggest it's just a fallacy to believe if it were magically open
sourced that we'd be likely to see anything change. Yes, it is theoretically
possible... but... practically...

The lack of movement with AWeb (open source for 10 years??), the VideoToaster
(open source), VLC (always has been) demonstrate... None of these have gone
anywhere on the Amiga. The developers to do it either are not there, are busy
with other things or just not interested enough.

Look at Mozilla/Firefox... It took years and years before someone capable
enough came along and put the sweat into getting anything done. (THANKS!)

I think we just don't have enough developers for another browser effort.
But maybe the existing ones can learn more from our old IBrowse?

PJS
PhantomRe: Why is IBrowse so good?20101219 18:04  #310
@pjs

The problem is that when I wanted to register for the latest iBrowse, it was impossible to acquire a license key because no-one answered in my query for that.

I've looked at AWeb in the past, unfortunately it's way too low in comparison with iBrowse, that's a fact.
pjsRe: Why is IBrowse so good?20101219 18:17  #311
@Thread

I agree that if IBrowse had to render all that CSS, etc. it would slow it down,
get bigger and take longer to load.

And please don't get me wrong... I really appreciate OWB daily. I'm
frequently having to use the ARexx script I made for tossing the current page
into OWB.

But it's not just load times. I think IBrowse reflects a different mindset.

Overall I'd say, yes, IBrowse is a little more responsive, but it's not night
vs day. And BTW during these tests, IBrowse crashed on me (during start-up & 
quitting) several times, while OWB didn't crash once.

And it goes without saying that scrolling, text highlighting, etc are just as 
fast in OWB as in IBrowse.


I find IBrowse is *much* smoother, faster and quicker to react with scrolling
than OWB.

And while you're surfing, clicking on links, hitting fastlink buttons, closing
and opening browsers, in IB it all happens so much faster, IMHO. Even while
it's busy plowing through other pages.

Everything about IB seems to be built to respond to the user's interactions -
to the limits of the hardware's capabilities. Well, maybe with the exception
of when it's fighting javascript?

Maybe it's only a small measurable difference, but it feels like moving through
molasses vs. water.

PJS
pjsRe: Why is IBrowse so good?20101219 18:32  #312
@amigo1

heh... In my experience, browsing on my Mac (1.5GHz G4 & FF) is perfect
example of how bad web browsers can be...

FF drags constantly. With 2-4 tabs open, it just gives me the beachball of
death for 20+ secs on most deiconifications. Clicking from one tab to another
is never responsive. On occasion it just hangs and you have to walk away and
get some coffee.

On my gf's OSX 10.5 1.nnGHz Inteleronomegaduothlon; surfing seems to be all
she does and she has to restart the machine 1-2 a week to get around the
beachball of death.

But then that has always been the Mac legacy... In two and half decades of
using them, I've never seen responsiveness.

PJS
ChrisHRe: Why is IBrowse so good?20101219 18:40  #313
@pjs
I find IBrowse is *much* smoother, faster and quicker to react with scrolling than OWB.

Is that before or after the web page has finished loading? If it is after, then I think there is a problem on your machine. (In that case, what is your machine, and which OS version/update?)

And while you're surfing, clicking on links, hitting fastlink buttons, closing and opening browsers, in IB iit all happens so much faster, IMHO.

As I demonstrated above with some measurements, IBrowse isn't that much better... at least on my machine. Maybe OWB has some problems on yours? If you made some measurements (try to keep start/stop timing fair) then we might be able to tell where the problem is, if any.
kas1eRe: Why is IBrowse so good?20101219 19:17  #315
@ChrisH

As Fab explain for me few hours ago, Ibrowse , for example in terms of scrolling, indeed faster than OWB, just because OWB use SW cairo which give you all of that (while for example on IB CPU will hog at 1%, in OWB it will hog 50% for example) . Solutions there - HW cairo (which should be done right, or , it can be even slower than SW cairo). For mui version of OWB, fab added some tricks which reduce problems a bit, but still in compare with ibrowse, ibrowse will indeed a bit faster.

But Ibrowse no more in develop, there is nothing that any of us can do with it. Its already do not know about many modern stadards and will not. Better to spend our energy on browsers sources of which we have already.
PhantomRe: Why is IBrowse so good?20101219 19:18  #316
@kas1e

Ibrowse no more in develop, there is nothing that any of us can do with it.


Only if someone release the sources.
kas1eRe: Why is IBrowse so good?20101219 19:22  #317
@Phantom

Yep, but its almost the same as ask for Warp3D sources :) Anyway, who will add new stadarts to Ibrowse ? Amigans are mostly start to be old and lazy. Better if someone motivate enough will make everything on any other computers, and we can add only our guis. Like for example with webkit, mplayer and others.

(i.e. i trying to point, that even if IB team will release sources, no one will add new stadarts , beceause its hell of work, which in other browsers do ppls who in interest to do it for all the world, not only for amiga or not amiga).
FabRe: Why is IBrowse so good?20101219 19:26  #318
@ChrisH

IBrowse is really much much faster at scrolling, indeed (but it's just because its rendering system is much more simple). Redrawing a full page with Cairo takes about 50-100ms on a Peg2/G4 depending on content. IBrowse wouldn't even need a tenth of that.

And regarding the GUI, IBrowse wins hands down against OWB OS4. And it still has some things I haven't implemented yet in OWB MUI (like configurable toolbar actions, disk cache, pattern-based/per-site settings, and other small things ...).

amigo1Re: Why is IBrowse so good?20101219 19:43  #320
@pjs

Yes, it's really strange how slow safari can get at times. but then it's the same with FF too. Opera was my fav browser for the last 3 days, now i'm on sharing internet time with the other browser too.

I have to admit that even if IB feels faster, I'm rarely using it. it annoys me when every second website is not rendered correctly so OWB takes the lead. :-)
ValiantRe: Why is IBrowse so good?20101220 14:37  #353
@pjs

I still prefer IBrowse for the majority of my surfing and only use OWB/NetSurf if there's a site that won't work any other way.


samo79Re: Why is IBrowse so good?20101220 15:42  #357
@Fab

Just a curiosity, in your opionion can hardware acceleration in Cairo helps in OWB speed rendering ?

BTW personally i don't like IBrowse, as GUI it's too '80 style for me, lot of options doesn't mind when you can't browse the web decently ...

OWB on OS4 is surely very poor but almost it is organized in a "modern way", tabs, context menu, shortcuts and so on.
FabRe: Why is IBrowse so good?20101220 17:11  #364
@samo79

Hard to say. I'd have to test on Linux to have some approximation.

But HW cairo will only do real good if almost all the used calls are accelerated, otherwise a non-accelerated call could very well kill the whole performance due to vmem->ram transfers.
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