Some questions regarding OS4 for Classic Amigas

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GrumpyOldMan

Posted on: 2007/10/26 9:31 #1

Just popping in

First, many thanks to all parties involved for bringing OS4 to the classic Amigas

I have some questions regarding this release. I tried to gather information from the various related threads but could not find an answer to following issues:

First, the BPPC SCSI - can somebody please explain why it is not supported? Is it a technical problem? I have understood CSPPC SCSI is supported, so why not BPPC one?

Second, the USB - what controllers are supported? Can we for example use Spider USB cards?

Finally, is OS4 for classics able to use the joystick ports on the mobo? If I want to play games through emulation does the joystick work on those?

"Ain't Got no cash, Ain't got no style, Ladies vomit when I smile, but does Zoidberg worry?"

TetiSoft

Re: Some questions regarding OS4 for Classic Amigas

Posted on: 2007/10/26 11:19 #2

Just popping in

@GrumpyOldMan

Quote:

First, the BPPC SCSI - can somebody please explain why it
is not supported? Is it a technical problem? I have
understood CSPPC SCSI is supported, so why not BPPC one?

The SCSI chips on both cards are different.
For a working driver, you need the information how to
access the SCSI chip on the card (which chip register
has which address etc), the docs for the chip, knowledge
in SCRIPT code (the chip executes a program written in
SCRIPT, thats probably a bit more complicated than the
average IDE driver), knowledge in SCSI, knowledge in
OS4 device driver programming including DMA, an A1200,
a BlizzardPPC card, a SCSI card for the BlizzardPPC,
some SCSI devices, time and motivation.

There may exist persons which have the knowledge but not
the hardware, the typical experienced OS4 developer has an
AOne, eventually a CSPPC, but no BPPC with SCSI. Or the
motivation may be missing (IDE works, IDEFix works, AFAIK
EIDE99 and FastATA work, SCSI is a dead standard nowadays,
the future is IDE/PATA/SATA/USB). Or the docs are missing
(dont remember if there exists a BPPC SCSI driver source
code with a NetBSD-like license, or at least docs about
the BPPC card register layout).

Quote:

Second, the USB - what controllers are supported? Can we for example use Spider USB cards?

The Highway is supported by the Sirion USB stack.
Its also possible to use Poseidon and its Subway driver,
I dont know if using Poseidon and its Spider driver would work.

Quote:

Finally, is OS4 for classics able to use the joystick ports on the mobo?

It comes with the classic version of gameport.device so it
should work, have not tested it for years but when it would
not work I'm pretty sure a bug report would have been filed.

samwel

Re: Some questions regarding OS4 for Classic Amigas

Posted on: 2007/10/26 11:29 #3

Just popping in

@TetiSoft

I guess it was Stephane who did the CSPPC driver?
If someone got him hardware, would he be willing to
do the driver?

IMO that driver is quite important for the A1200.. All other
options are really slow..

Best Regards,

Harry

[SOLD] ?A1-C, 512MB, Antec Aria

Wol

Re: Some questions regarding OS4 for Classic Amigas

Posted on: 2007/10/26 12:34 #4

Just popping in

Why do we always standardise on the WORST system ?

IDE not SCSI

VHS not BETA

Winblows not Anything else

USB not FireWire

PCI crappy config not Zorro Autoconfig

and many more........

Wol.

TetiSoft

Re: Some questions regarding OS4 for Classic Amigas

Posted on: 2007/10/26 12:57 #5

Just popping in

@samwel

Quote:

I guess it was Stephane who did the CSPPC driver?

Three developers worked on the CSPPC driver, not Stephane.
Quote:

If someone got him hardware, would he be willing to
do the driver?

Just ask him.
Quote:

IMO that driver is quite important for the A1200.. All other
options are really slow..

I disagree. The BPPC SCSI board is not as fast as the CSPPC
UWSCSI anyway, and IMHO many people are overestimating raw
disk speed. In daily usage it doesnt matter that much
if your drive reads 2.5 MB/s (IDE PIO0, SCSISpeed just
reported that for my A4k IDE drive in OS4) or 5MB/s
(IDE PIO something or SCSI non-sync) or 10MB/s (SCSI sync),
you need a stopwatch to find out if the machine boots faster
or loads application X faster, you dont notice much
difference without a stopwatch or a benchmark test.
Corrections welcome...

TSK

Re: Some questions regarding OS4 for Classic Amigas

Posted on: 2007/10/26 14:36 #6

Just can't stay away

Quote:

Why do we always standardise on the WORST system ?

IDE not SCSI

VHS not BETA

Winblows not Anything else

USB not FireWire

PCI crappy config not Zorro Autoconfig

I have always been wondering that too.

But it's the price not superiority or anything else (IDE, VHS). And world domination (Winblows, USB).

Quote:

you dont notice much
difference without a stopwatch or a benchmark test

I agree. This is same in many different areas in computing nowadays. I can't understand why people make it big fuss some 1% speed difference because one can't really notice it with bare eyes.

Rock lobster bit me - so I'm here forever
X1000 + AmigaOS 4.1 FE
"Anyone can build a fast CPU. The trick is to build a fast system." - Seymour Cray

TetiSoft

Re: Some questions regarding OS4 for Classic Amigas

Posted on: 2007/10/26 17:35 #7

Just popping in

@thread

Correcting myself:
Quote:

I dont know if using Poseidon and its Spider driver would work.

In the meantime I found that a Spider is a PCI USB EHCI/OHCI
card, not a Zorro board, ergo it cant work with OS4 on a
classic machine because UHCI/OHCI/EHCI cards require working DMA
and there exists no classic PCI board which has working
DMA (from PCI to main memory).

Rogue

Re: Some questions regarding OS4 for Classic Amigas

Posted on: 2007/10/26 20:03 #8

Quite a regular

@Wol

Quote:

IDE not SCSI

Hardly a question anymore, Serial-ATA is winning anyway. IDE was cheaper than SCSI, and the cabling was much easier (especially if you had to cope with wide and narrow equipment).

Quote:

VHS not BETA

That one's easy. The porn industry adapted VHS... Good bye beta.

Quote:

Winblows not Anything else

In the absence of any serious contender...

Quote:

USB not FireWire

Price issues as well.

Quote:

PCI crappy config not Zorro Autoconfig

You don't know much about PCI if you think that Zorro is better.

What exactly do you think is better with Zorro?

Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.

Wol

Re: Some questions regarding OS4 for Classic Amigas

Posted on: 2007/10/26 22:13 #9

Just popping in

@Rogue

Hi,

I was refering to all the IRQ conflicts etc,
how PCI cards conflict with each other.

In this day and age, things like that should not happen.

On the other hand; Zorro Autoconfig never fails,
that is, I have never heard of a Autoconfig cock up.

PS: It's true I know a lot less about PCI than Zorro,
perhaps you could explain in detail how PCI config
happens..

Kind regards,
Wol...

R-TEAM

Re: Some questions regarding OS4 for Classic Amigas

Posted on: 2007/10/26 22:23 #10

Just popping in

Hi,

I REALY dont see SCSI as a "..dead standard nowadays.." !

For the "normal" PC user it is without sense- this is right.
But this was alltimes so ....

But i dont think "the normal PC user" buy OS4 or very expansive
OS4 HW ........

I have here a good SCSI system on my A4k/060 with Cyberstorm MK-III
UW-SCSI controler and i DONT buy a new OS4 machine without good
SCSI drivers !
I dont need U160 or U320 or SAS or other more proffesional SCSI
solutions .. a full supporting of the always running SCSI chips
[UW2-SCSI 2 channel] would enough .. so the NEW system have a little
more abdvantage as my 10+ Years old A4k/060 system .....
[UW2-SCSI <> UW-SCSI]

And i pray not the "more speed than IDE [SATA]" song ...
But it is true that with SCSI the speed is significant more
than with SATA [if you use quality SCSI drives] and i use proffesional
backup storage with UW-SCSI DLT Streamers, so SCSI is a MUSST
for my Main system ...
Foreseen from the long life quality of good SCSI drives ..

I hope my next Main system will be an Amiga ...

[have bought in the past 3 month 2 ? PC {IBM Workstations Intellistations
M Pro} to make the tasks that my old A4k is not usable,and for the nice
Games that the OS4 user can play {OpenTTD/Wesnoth - and inspired by Rogue
NWN, a fantastic Game ;) } and one PC just replaced my second
A4k/060 Desktop with Apollo060 with WinUAE on here powerfull Multi CPU,
one of them have UW2-SCSI and with this -No SCSI Future on OS4-
messages my wish is growing to use the SCSI on the PC more as ATM
{use my DLT streamer with him,ATM it is used on tha Amiga} ]

R-TEAM

Rob

Re: Some questions regarding OS4 for Classic Amigas

Posted on: 2007/10/26 23:12 #11

Not too shy to talk

@TetiSoft

Quote:

TetiSoft wrote:

I disagree. The BPPC SCSI board is not as fast as the CSPPC
UWSCSI anyway, and IMHO many people are overestimating raw
disk speed. In daily usage it doesnt matter that much
if your drive reads 2.5 MB/s (IDE PIO0, SCSISpeed just
reported that for my A4k IDE drive in OS4) or 5MB/s
(IDE PIO something or SCSI non-sync) or 10MB/s (SCSI sync),
you need a stopwatch to find out if the machine boots faster
or loads application X faster, you dont notice much
difference without a stopwatch or a benchmark test.
Corrections welcome...

The extra CPU cycles afforded by by DMA enabled SCSI drivers might make the difference when playing back audio or video from hard disk on such low end systems.

I think SCSI support is imortant to people who have invested time and money in their SCSI setup.

TetiSoft

Re: Some questions regarding OS4 for Classic Amigas

Posted on: 2007/10/26 23:27 #12

Just popping in

@R-TEAM

Quote:

I REALY dont see SCSI as a "..dead standard nowadays.." !

For the "normal" PC user it is without sense- this is right.
But this was alltimes so ....

Some years ago the advertisements of computer shops
in computer magazines still offered SCSI hardware
(which was slightly more expensive than IDE hardware).
Today you wont find any SCSI equipment in the average
advertisement anymore. "Its dead Jim." Yes, I too liked it
more than IDE in the past. Rest in peace.

Quote:

I have here a good SCSI system on my A4k/060 with Cyberstorm MK-III
UW-SCSI controler and i DONT buy a new OS4 machine without good
SCSI drivers !

The UW-SCSI on the CSPPC is supported by a PPC native driver
in OS4. The BPPC SCSI module and the A3k/A4kT onboard SCSI
are not supported.

R-TEAM

Re: Some questions regarding OS4 for Classic Amigas

Posted on: 2007/10/26 23:33 #13

Just popping in

Hi,

@Rob

>I think SCSI support is imortant to people who have
>invested time and money in their SCSI setup.

AND for Power user that dont need IDE [SATA IS IDE only
on a serial line] and like the proffesional way ..

I dont buy a very expansive OS4 MoBo and then i musst stuck with
simple IDE ...

How many frinds anywear he know with broken IDE PC Hard-Drives ?
And full loose of his Data .. but on PC is this not a big task ..
musst install new Windows anyway from time to time [or re-install
a old system it is make to much problems .. so a new HD is a normal
thing in the PC World ..]

This was happen to NO SCSI drive i use over the past 15 Years !
And i use parts of Data on my actual HD from good old K2.0 times..
[i think a handfull is from k1.3 times ;) ]

R-TEAM

R-TEAM

Re: Some questions regarding OS4 for Classic Amigas

Posted on: 2007/10/26 23:42 #14

Just popping in

Hi,

@TetiSoft

I dont reffering to the CS-PPC-UW/SCSI controler ..
I was thinking of a NEW HW with an PCI-66 slot for
an good UW2-SCSI controler with the chip that is always
supportet on AOne OS4.
But it use only 8bit SCSI-1 transfer.

This was the point i refering.

And i have no problem to buy an good server SCSI drive nowdays..
But i have a problem to buy OS4 HW nowdays .... :P
And i can buy pro-Back-Up solutions without problems.
But he all need SCSI ....
All HD producer brings NEW SCSI or SAS drive on the market..
It is right that this expansive drives not for the normal user from
interesst ..biu it is the same with OS4.

R-TEAM

TetiSoft

Re: Some questions regarding OS4 for Classic Amigas

Posted on: 2007/10/26 23:59 #15

Just popping in

@R-TEAM

Quote:

>I think SCSI support is imortant to people who have
>invested time and money in their SCSI setup.

AND for Power user that dont need IDE [SATA IS IDE only
on a serial line] and like the proffesional way ..

I dont buy a very expansive OS4 MoBo and then i musst stuck with
simple IDE ...

Well, you just confirmed that the BPPC SCSI support is
not that much important because the power users with
expensive (when it was bought) SCSI equipment dont use
an A1200 anyway.

Of course BPPC SCSI support would be nice, but the fact
that its missing is IMHO just annoying, not a real showstopper.
The remaining classic power users have CSPPC SCSI and
that is supported. When you have to replace your existing
A1200 SCSI drives with IDE versions, a brand new IDE
harddisk plus an ATAPI DVD drive from www.alternate.de are
together(!) cheaper than 80 Euro...

TetiSoft

Re: Some questions regarding OS4 for Classic Amigas

Posted on: 2007/10/27 0:17 #16

Just popping in

@R-TEAM

Quote:

I dont reffering to the CS-PPC-UW/SCSI controler ..
I was thinking of a NEW HW with an PCI-66 slot for
an good UW2-SCSI controler with the chip that is always
supportet on AOne OS4.
But it use only 8bit SCSI-1 transfer.

This was the point i refering.

Then you didnt make that point very clear in your last
posts IMHO.

In theory you can eventually use the existing SCSI
driver for the AOne (which IIRC can be found on os4depot.net)
with a PCI board for a classic Amiga, but in practice the
PCI SCSI cards with the supported chips dont work in
the classic PCI boards which dont support 3.3Volt-only PCI
cards, only 5Volt PCI cards.

When you want a PCI-66 slot for your classic Amiga,
ask a hardware manufacturer. Hyperion and the OS4
developers are software developers. I'm not a hardware
expert but would PCI-66 in a classic make any sense?
It has to be converted to Zorro which is too slow for it?

GrumpyOldMan

Re: Some questions regarding OS4 for Classic Amigas

Posted on: 2007/10/27 1:22 #17

Just popping in

@TetiSoft

Quote:

TetiSoft wrote:
Well, you just confirmed that the BPPC SCSI support is not that much important because the power users with expensive (when it was bought) SCSI equipment dont use an A1200 anyway.

I think that is a common misconception...

Quote:

Of course BPPC SCSI support would be nice, but the fact that its missing is IMHO just annoying, not a real showstopper.

Not a showstopper but a real nuisance. For me it means that every time I want to use my SCSI flatbed scanner with ImageFX or use my SCSI hard disks for video recording with VHI Studio, I have to boot into AmigaOS 3.9. I would like to go all OS4, but it seems impossible now.

Quote:

The remaining classic power users have CSPPC SCSI and that is supported.

Not true, as this thread shows there are also power users using BPPC SCSI.

Quote:

When you have to replace your existing A1200 SCSI drives with IDE versions, a brand new IDE harddisk plus an ATAPI DVD drive from www.alternate.de are together(!) cheaper than 80 Euro...

How about other SCSI devices like flatbed scanners?

"Ain't Got no cash, Ain't got no style, Ladies vomit when I smile, but does Zoidberg worry?"

R-TEAM

Re: Some questions regarding OS4 for Classic Amigas

Posted on: 2007/10/27 1:44 #18

Just popping in

Hi,

@TetiSoft:

Sorry .. you missunderstand this a little bit ;)

To clarify :

I jumped here in, based on your message :

"...SCSI is a dead standard nowadays.."

And sorry, i reffere in no sense to classic HW.
[this i think you have missunderstand]

I would a NEW HW with the ability to connect
an SCSI card to it and USE it.

I am think the BPPC-SCSI support is coming in the near
Future .. and i think too it is importand for this low
power PPC boards to save CPU time on all devices.
And the BPPC-SCSI device IS less CPU hungry and powerfuller
than any existing IDE solution ...

But in the OS4 Dev group [this is my sense] the opinion
that SCSI is useless and dont important for OS4 over hand wins.

This is from my view a bad evolution ....
Without SCSI on my next Amiga [OS4 based] .. it will no Amiga anymore
for me.

And please dont come with "cheap" IDE drives ..
If i like cheap . i realy dont buy any OS4 HW !

For the user that connect to here expansive 1000$ Amiga a 80$
IDE drive and is Happy is this no problem ...

But for the user that will connect an likewise expansive server
grade U160SCA HD for 400$ to his lovely Amiga, or his 80GB
DLT tape-Streamer for 2000$ to backup her partitions with
DiavoloBK2000.. ATM it is no solution for this group..

R-TEAM

number6

Re: Some questions regarding OS4 for Classic Amigas

Posted on: 2007/10/27 3:46 #19

Just popping in

@Wol

Quote:

I was refering to all the IRQ conflicts etc,
how PCI cards conflict with each other.

You mean like Mediator PCI bus board, realtek ethernet and graphics?

#6

K-L

Re: Some questions regarding OS4 for Classic Amigas

Posted on: 2007/10/27 8:15 #20

Just can't stay away

In my opinion, when a serious Classic OS4 users base has taken place, many unexpected drivers will come.

It has always been like that on Amiga. Remember the AmigaOne and its onboard sound?

I think we should wait for the release of AmigaOS 4 Classic and then we'll see many little drivers coming from everywhere (hopefully).

--
AmigaONE X1000 and Radeon RX 560

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