Can 1,000,000 NatAmis Be Sold? YES!!

@tiffers

Quote:Why would anyone buy a NatAmi which can't run AmigaOS software, or only extremely slow with a m68k emulator?

ColdFire CPUs can only be used as m68k replacement if you have the sources of all software you are using and can recompile/reassemble everything for the ColdFire. To run AmigaOS m68k software, the OS itself as well as all current applications, games, etc., on a ColdFire CPU you need a complete m68k emulator, just like for example in UAE.

@joerg

or JIT, and I belive oxypatcher, fixed some missing instructions by patching the exe at load time.

@LiveForIt

You can't patch all coldfire differences like you could the 060 ones, though.

@joerg


Quote:

NetAmi will target AGA graphics, 8 bit stuff will run extremely fast hi resolutions, UAE can not do that.

But what is the point, this days we expect 32bit graphics or ultra fast 3D graphics.

@LiveForIt

Quote:Of course a JIT emulator, an interpreting emulator would be unusable on such slow CPUs.

Quote:Not at load time, that's impossible with the AmigaOS <= 3.9 HUNK executable format since there are no different sections for code and (read-only) data in the executables, they are patched the first time such an instruction is executed, but on ColdFire that's as impossible as partial emulation (only the missing/different instructions).
On 68040 and 68060 CPUs you get an exception for all unsupported instructions and can emulate them (68040/68060.library), or on-the-fly patch the executables (CyberPatcher, OxyronPatcher), but on ColdFire CPUs you don't always get an exception but "just" different results in some cases and the only way to run m68k software on a ColdFire CPU is the same as on any other incompatible CPU (x86, PPC, ARM, MIPS, ...): A complete m68k emulator. Using a ColdFire CPU instead of another one for such a m68k emulator has no advantage at all and for example a x86 based NatAmi would make more sense as it would be much faster, and very likely cheaper as well.

Hi xeron, joerg, LiveForIt,


From what I understand, they are going to have a 68060 @75 or 90 MHz in there, as well as AGA that uses _16_ Megabytes of chip ram (Roquefort's and many others' dream come true, mine as well) and it will be substantially faster!!!!

100% compatibility, nearly with all of Aminet!!

Hope AMOS Professional works! That one program is of the utter most importance to me. (Not that all the others aren't.)

@joerg

The reason they are looking at the Coldfire version 5 is that it is available with a built-in FPGA so they can supply the total solution on just one chip.

Also, the new version 5 Coldfire is almost the same speed at running Coldfire native code as the Sam440EP's PowerPC when you factor in for the PowerPC RISC instruction set being 30% less memory efficient than a hybrid CISC like the Coldfire. In short, the newest Coldfire chips should run classic software faster with a JIT compiler than an EFIKA or Sam440EP can run EUAE.

The NatAmi team seems to have no intention of running 68k code with the types of OxyPatcher-style shortcuts suggested previously. Also, some of the slowness of the Coldfire comes from recent versions of GCC producing sub-optimal code for 68k and Coldfire instruction sets.

Hi Samurai_Crow,


Now..... I'm confused.

@Atheist

There is a 68060 100MHz in the current prototype. It would be too expensive to make the 68060 and FPGA separately so now they're looking into a Coldfire chip that will have an FPGA on the same chip to save costs.

If they go with a Coldfire version 5 chip they won't need a separate 68060 and FPGA but will need a JIT compiler to translate the instruction set from 68060 to Coldfire as it executes. See this thread for more details.

And as for AmosPro running natively on Coldfire, it will require a totally new compiler for it. Mattathias is based on LLVM which doesn't currently support Coldfire instruction sets yet. But at least it will work on PowerPC accelerated systems such as the AmigaOne eventually.

-edit- After having read the link above, maybe they are thinking of patching.

@Samurai_Crow

The Coldfire V5 doesn't have an FPGA built into it.

The V5 is built to the customers requirements, if you want ethernet and USB controllers, or your own logic on the same chip then you ask for it.
The logic will be fixed but it will also be a lot cheaper than starting out with a $100 FPGA.

@Atheist

If you want a Natami with a 68060 on board then you will have to order one the developer boards if they are producing them for more that just developers.

The cost will be similar to what the A1 motherboard cost so you're probably looking at around $1000 if you want one and you'll jhave to make sure your board is in the first run as the won't be any subsequent productions.

I'd recommend signing up to the Natami forums.

@Rob

Quote:It would be cheaper if you'd order such a custom CF5 CPU with SuperAGA included in high volumes, but is it really cheaper for a tiny batch for something like the NatAmi?

@Atheist

haha, amigans.net is refusing to drink your glass of Crazy.

@Atheist

With all due respect the PS3 is bascially what a new gen Amiga should have been - all its missing is the OS and the only thing stopping that is this bloody court case, once Hyperion win then they can approach Sony and voila it will be licensed (hell they'll license anything with the right cut of profits).

If Amiga, inc win its game over. But we all know this don't we?

NatAmi is a nice idea and I hope it does come to fruition in a form that makes sense (Coldfire doesn't imho as it will no longer be fully compatible with classic Amigas and significantly faster).

Frankly its pretty much game over for the next few years anyway as we have missed a tech plataeu. Perhaps its time to start laying the foundations for utilising the technologies that will be coming to the fore in 2010 onwards - such as the ultra high-res OLED displays (ie better than 1080P res) and be ready for the PS4 etc generation. Thing is we need to lose Amiga, Inc first otherwise the only thing using the name Amiga will be in your pocket and not actually be Amiga like in anyway :(

Hi All,

By the sounds of it they are thinking of using the Coldfire as it allows them to initially build a cheap 1 chip solution. This, as has been pointed out, has the problem that the Coldfire is not 100% compatible with the 680xx series and since it does not fire exceptions as the 68040 and 68060 do and you will need some kind of vitalisation/jit or whatever to get os 3.x programmes to run. But then you're going to need something like this in any case whatever you run them on as they are so tied to expecting classic Amiga hardware.

This kind-of brings me back to the poll that Chris kindly placed for me (is the Amiga's future as a virtual platform? ---
http://www.amigans.net/modules/xoopspoll/index.php?poll_id=34
---).

To get os3.x sw to run at native speeds you need hw that it understands *or* an emulator/virtuliser of some sort and much more powerful CPU, such as a 1+ gig pentium/AMD/PPC and at present UAE.

So a 680x0 and all the blitter/paula etc hw that a classic system has - or UAE etc. The Natami developer boards will have the hw solution, as they will have the blitter etc in a FPGA and a 68060. But this will be very expensive, $1,000 or so, so not really a viable full term solution, hence Coldfire and a CPU HAL. I guess the initial solution would be an E-UAE port which does not need to emulate the blitter etc, since they are already there!

The plus for the Coldfire is that it is a 1 chip solution so a lot simpler to build (though I have *no* idea how it works!). With an intel cpu you'd have to have the blitter etc in an FPGA , and all the usb stuff outside, which would bump the cost and I guess complexity up.

There is, as someone pointed out on the Natami forum, the problem of Amiga Inc and the old Commadore Trademarks/copywrites. Heaven knowns who actually holds them! I have a feeling the reverse engineering (which is basically what the Natami is) is OK in Europe, but a complete No-No in the USA. So it could be that Amiga Inc will get miffed and kill the project - if they can prove they own the copy writes... Time will tell on that.

If they don't, or if they loose the court case(?) then it could be that the Natami will provide an initial boost to us classic owners who always wonder if they are going to be faced with a single colour, or worse black screen when we turn our Amigas on. And then PPC or other accelerators for OS4 or whatever -if enough people buy the cold fire kit.

Quote:
No.

Quote:
OS3.x is outdated compared to OS4 so I (for example) won't ever go back to it. I'd rather switch to another platform (than playing/toying with millions of unstable dirty patches and hacks forever).

@thread

It looks like on this thread that the NatAmi team is evaluating the possibility of integrating a 68000 series processor core into the SuperAGA chipset at this time.

If the OCS/ECS is 100% error free; one word.


NASA!



Seriously though, there may be many places that are still using the Amiga that may want a reliable update/replacement. All SW will most likely work as-is.


Question, if there were 2 FPGAs, could the other be programmed so that it could digitize audio/video input? Even HDTV input?

Check the statistics before you say no:


Amiga 2000, A.D. 1989 ..... NatAmi, A.D. 2008

CPU
68000 @ 7.14 MHz ..... 68060 @ 100 MHz
Ram
1 Meg chip.....256 Megs fast, 16 megs chip

Graphics
OCS/ECS 7.14 MHz ..... OCS/ECS ~100x faster = ~714 MHz
AGA 14 MHZ ..... AGA ~100x faster = ~1400 MHz
+++ the AGA will have enhanced modes built in!

Storage
880K floppy ..... 1-32 Gig CF, SD
640 Meg CD-ROM ..... 640 Meg CD-RW, DVD-RW 4.7 Gig dual layer 9.2 Gig
HD 20-200 Megs ..... HD 40-500+ Gigs

Emulation?
Atari 520, 1040, Atari TT 030 Falcon
Various MacIntoshes
And imagine the SPEEDS!


Price (computer only)
$2100 Canadian ..... US$1,100 (possibly less)



This is for a virtually 100% Amiga replacement.....

And it is the LAST CHANCE for such a piece of HISTORY to be acquired!!

Imagine how much THESE may be sold on eBay for in 3 or 4 years!

@cogvos1

Quote:

Actually the system was re-engineered from a service manual or some other such documentation and, as such, was not reverse-engineered. It should be fine to sell in the U.S.A.

Also, it would only need to reverse engineer or patch a Kickstart ROM if they used Coldfire. Now that it seems they are trying to produce a 68040-equivalent in the SuperAGA chip itself, which will work with existing ROM images from Cloanto's Amiga Forever package.