Remember when everyone wanted the best Radeon 9000 card for their AmigaOne XE. Every week, we had a thread asking : which Radeon should I buy ? Which one is the fastest ? And so on...
And everyone tried to buy on EBay the best supported Radeon to replace thte one already ine their AmigaOne (I had a Radeon 9250 SE and finally bought a 9000 Pro. We even had comparison charts (the Radeon 9000 pro being the best).
Today, if you ask the very same question for your AmigaOne 500 ou AmigaOne X1000, the answer is RadeonHD 5xxx and 6xxx series.
And you'll be able to sell your Radeon HD 4xxxx card to a PC user for example.
Today, if you ask the very same question for your AmigaOne 500 ou AmigaOne X1000, the answer is RadeonHD 5xxx and 6xxx series. And you'll be able to sell your Radeon HD 4xxxx card to a PC user for example.
Well difference between 9000 series wasnt that effective as it is now, and all cards were fully supported.
Point is that RadeonHD transition is biggest step forward, but it is sad indeed that all those who basically got SAM 460 and X1000 for RadeonHD (4000 series) will have to suffer with further 2D only.
As well as those who jump to RadeonHD 6000 now, sice driver development is assured, but no Warp3D implementation yet.
This also sounds like a quick "adjust to the avail resources" thing way more then a plan - it would sound better if first RadeonHD 2D driver supported 6000 series and 4000 was never sold as according card. No current Amiga reseller sells this card too. Now, we just have to adjust.
@hans
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So, you want 4000 series Warp3D drivers too? Are you prepared to contribute financially to make it happen? If so, then let A-EON know. With enough demand, it could happen. This is something that could work as a Kickstarter project.
Yes, if it would be an opened bounty with set goal. These cards are getting unavail, but are not bad at all. And you see that merely all current SAM 460ex and X1000 users feel kind of betrayed with this kind of decision, even its all your good work and we all need to be grateful for your hard work.
However, I do agree its easier to get new card with assured 3D driver existing then waiting for development, if we have clarification that OS 4.2 Gallium will support 3D with these cards too.
@ssolie Quote:
I'll probably be shot dead for saying this but... wouldn't it be a lot cheaper and easier if you guys just purchased newer graphics cards? I know. Crazy talk.
Surely, since that seems to be only provided solution.
@rogue
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Please lose the word "promised". I hate it that people always try to put it as if we promised something and didn't make it. We don't make promises. We have release plans that might or might not make it. There is a difference between that and a promise. About announcing delays, most people don't do it since any release date is a guess at best.
OK, more progress reports and avail betas. There is nice infrastructure and surely it keeps community alive and bugfixing possible.
Once on subject, when we will know what should be new elements of AmigaOS 4.2? No release date promised.
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Whoever said it was support? Nobody claimed that. It's not even a Hyperion project, and as such, doesn't have anything to do with AmigaOS.
2D / 3D driver for AmigaOS hasn`t anything to do with AmigaOS?
Please either take all development in house, or accept 3rd party developments that become parts of AmigaOS should be supported to some extent. This kind of bad relations to users comes from "flipping the ball to other corner" - that is Acube hardware (but we use Hyperion OS on it), that is A-EON, these we develop as Amiga bounty etc.
@Rogue Quote:
Is it really so hard to both support existing and make path towards future? You have no idea.
With 3-5 gfx cards and 3-5 sound cards supported? It seems that real use of PCI and PCI-E cards will be a weak knee of anyone that isn`t Microsoft. Or that dont have Linux community size development.
Well if you look towards the future, you could drop Radeon 9000 series support and make a PCI-E 2 PCI converter for older boards of find a RadeonHD that can work in AmigaOnes, Pegs and SAM 440.
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Thanks to Trevor and Hyperion, but still there is a room for improvement, so out of criticism, what should be seen as positive criticism could be taken into account.
You are mistaken. There is no room.
And it looks like it will never be. My gentle suggestion is that Hyperion / A-EON / Acube could have someone that would communicate politely, with much patience and culture to community - press releases or forums. You guys do have both much work to do and heavy stance that your choices are simply the best that allow no room for any second opinion.
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Also, LibreOffice port deserves really some more room and clearance. What about "X is porting Y" needs clearance? Release date? Not going to happen. System Requirements? Too early. What do you expect, seriously?
That is the biggest news of Amiwest and this year to my belief (let me know if there was something more important at least in software). Some idea of system requirements would be nice. Better who is doing the development (one person, team ...) and is any public release planned for first year of development?
Officially Libre requires 512MB RAM.
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3D is never mentioned because this announcement was about 2D drivers. Do you think those write themselves, especially with things like Compositing in the graphics kernel? But that is the poinr. You are drawing conclusions that aren't there, there is explicitly no mention of 3D.
God thanks the Warp3D software emulation that allows SAM 460 and X1000 users to have some joy.
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Seriously, can we put this discussion to rest? No ranting will change the fact. The drivers will support the Evergreen series; adapting them to other cards is going to be work that might not be worth the effort. The Warp3D drivers will come out "as is", if you have a 4000 and don't want to upgrade, fine, you'll have to wait for 4.2.
OK, all thumbs up for the OS 4.2, hoping to see it sooner then later!
5000/6000 ... You'll be able to get one for a mere 20-30 Euros.
I was imagining that a new card would be much more expensive (*), so that is a relief to hear. What would be the equivalent of a 4650, such that a new card wouldn't be a downgrade?
(* = I don't have any 'gut feeling' for Radeon card models, since I've basically only ever bought NVidia cards.)
No worries or sense of betrayal from me that Warp3D is not announced for the 4000 series cards like the 4850 that I bought with my X1000. It was never promised and anyway I already upgraded to a RadeonHD 6850 as soon as I learned the newer, better cards were going to be supported by the 2D driver.
Also, frankly, I already figured Gallium and OS4.2 were a ways off. After all, nothing has come fast before has it? But getting Warp3D (which was never expected) in the short term is good news for me, and if I didn't already have the 6850 card I wouldn't waste a second fretting about it. I'd just buy a 5xxx or 6xxx card. I mean, the cheaper ones are not very costly at all.
And on top of all this, all indications are that the A-EON partners are being both cautious AND optimistic that there'll be new OS4.X hardware to come. That's good to hear.
The A-EON partners are investing (read that as risking) real money on development. They have to be careful and make well-considered decisions of how to spend limited resources.
vox wrote: Once on subject, when we will know what should be new elements of AmigaOS 4.2? No release date promised.
As we discussed at AmiWest, I plan to publish an AmigaOS road map of sorts at some point which will include a list of features we want in 4.2 and future releases. I still need permission from the stakeholders but I think they will agree to the idea.
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My gentle suggestion is that Hyperion / A-EON / Acube could have someone that would communicate politely, with much patience and culture to community - press releases or forums. You guys do have both much work to do and heavy stance that your choices are simply the best that allow no room for any second opinion.
That is what I have been trying to do for a couple of years now. The developer blog has had regular updates and when I can I share information. What else do you want?
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...Some idea of system requirements would be nice. Better who is doing the development (one person, team ...) and is any public release planned for first year of development?
Officially Libre requires 512MB RAM.
I can understand why system requirements would be nice to know. I also understand the desire for a release date. I really don't understand why you need to know who is working on it.
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God thanks the Warp3D software emulation that allows SAM 460 and X1000 users to have some joy.
I'm no expert on religion but I don't think an omnipotent entity that spans both time and space gives a rats ass whether a Warp3D driver works on a 4000 series card or not.
mbrantley wrote: No worries or sense of betrayal from me that Warp3D is not announced for the 4000 series cards like the 4850 that I bought with my X1000. It was never promised and anyway I already upgraded to a RadeonHD 6850 as soon as I learned the newer, better cards were going to be supported by the 2D driver.
I also bought a couple of 4000 series cards for my X1000. I have since upgraded to a 6850 and have been quite happy with it. I suppose I should be in some web forum complaining as well.
I'm no expert on religion but I don't think an omnipotent entity that spans both time and space gives a rats ass whether a Warp3D driver works on a 4000 series card or not.
I am looking forward to quieting down my X1000 a tad.
I am a little bummed that it appears Warp will not work for the 4650 that came with my X1000, mostly because I spent tons of $ on it and it appears 2013 I will just not have extra cash to be buying anything else, but at the same time, no big deal really and I will roll with the punches.
I will wait to see how it all pans out and then find the best fanless video card that the new Warp 3D support and get it later when I can have some cash again.
I do appreciate all that Trevor and team have done bringing X1000 to market.
TJ
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mbrantley wrote: No worries or sense of betrayal from me that Warp3D is not announced for the 4000 series cards like the 4850 that I bought with my X1000. It was never promised and anyway I already upgraded to a RadeonHD 6850 as soon as I learned the newer, better cards were going to be supported by the 2D driver.
Also, frankly, I already figured Gallium and OS4.2 were a ways off. After all, nothing has come fast before has it? But getting Warp3D (which was never expected) in the short term is good news for me, and if I didn't already have the 6850 card I wouldn't waste a second fretting about it. I'd just buy a 5xxx or 6xxx card. I mean, the cheaper ones are not very costly at all.
And on top of all this, all indications are that the A-EON partners are being both cautious AND optimistic that there'll be new OS4.X hardware to come. That's good to hear.
The A-EON partners are investing (read that as risking) real money on development. They have to be careful and make well-considered decisions of how to spend limited resources.
TJ, I have so many fans blowing in my home computer lab (including the one aimed at me most of the time), as well as the TV or the music playing, the girls yacking (er, conversing with me I mean) and the dogs making various noises that... well, I don't know. I suspect they are the same. Plus, I still have the 4850 installed and driving a second display, so I added to the noise no doubt about it.
Sorry I'm no help on this one. About the only quiet time I get is when I am in my old-fashioned photo darkroom, and that's not too often these days.
Anyway, I figure the custom Nemo board and the exotic CPU were expensive but the video card wasn't, so it's no big deal to me. And until the AmiWest announcement I had no notion that Warp3D was coming at all.
I take it workbench runs on one display and the other your apps of choice?
Do both displays also have slide down screens?
That would be neat!
tj
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mbrantley wrote: TJ, I have so many fans blowing in my home computer lab (including the one aimed at me most of the time), as well as the TV or the music playing, the girls yacking (er, conversing with me I mean) and the dogs making various noises that... well, I don't know. I suspect they are the same. Plus, I still have the 4850 installed and driving a second display, so I added to the noise no doubt about it.
Sorry I'm no help on this one. About the only quiet time I get is when I am in my old-fashioned photo darkroom, and that's not too often these days.
Anyway, I figure the custom Nemo board and the exotic CPU were expensive but the video card wasn't, so it's no big deal to me. And until the AmiWest announcement I had no notion that Warp3D was coming at all.
Point is that RadeonHD transition is biggest step forward, but it is sad indeed that all those who basically got SAM 460 and X1000 for RadeonHD (4000 series) will have to suffer with further 2D only.
Suffer? Don't you think that's a bit melodramatic?
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As well as those who jump to RadeonHD 6000 now, sice driver development is assured, but no Warp3D implementation yet.
Your point... being?
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This also sounds like a quick "adjust to the avail resources" thing way more then a plan - it would sound better if first RadeonHD 2D driver supported 6000 series and 4000 was never sold as according card. No current Amiga reseller sells this card too. Now, we just have to adjust.
Again, what is your point? Yes, Warp3D support for these cards was never planned. Yes, due to delays with the OS A-Eon decided to fund these drivers as a stop-gap solution. What is your problem with that? I am quite sure that if you had a supported card, you would be singing quite a different song. As I said before, this is not a loss for those with 4000, but a win for those with 5000/6000.
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Yes, if it would be an opened bounty with set goal. These cards are getting unavail, but are not bad at all. And you see that merely all current SAM 460ex and X1000 users feel kind of betrayed with this kind of decision, even its all your good work and we all need to be grateful for your hard work.
Speak for yourself but not for "all current SAM 460ex and X1000 owners". You are blowing tings up beyond proportions. Calling this a "betrayal" is bollocks.
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However, I do agree its easier to get new card with assured 3D driver existing then waiting for development, if we have clarification that OS 4.2 Gallium will support 3D with these cards too.
You will never get any guarantee. Once Gallium is available, we'll post a list of supported graphics cards. That will ALMOST CERTAINLY include the 4000, 5000, and 6000 series, and possibly beyond that, but the exact list you'll get once we know it.
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OK, more progress reports and avail betas. There is nice infrastructure and surely it keeps community alive and bugfixing possible.
We have beta testers for beta testing. There is no point in doing a public beta test, this will always generate more noise than signal. Our beta testing works well enough for that. Public beta tests open a can of worms. You tell people explicitly not to use it if they have important data, and still they do and then complain when something was lost.
No thanks.
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Once on subject, when we will know what should be new elements of AmigaOS 4.2? No release date promised.
You'll hear it when we say something.
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2D / 3D driver for AmigaOS hasn`t anything to do with AmigaOS?
Not the point. I said, Warp3D drivers are an A-Eon project, I am not talking about anything else and you know that.
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Please either take all development in house, or accept 3rd party developments that become parts of AmigaOS should be supported to some extent.
3rd Party development was always part of AmgiaOS. Picasso96? Roadshow? Warp3D? These are all external components that are now integrated into AmigaOS. I don't see what is wrong with that.
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This kind of bad relations to users comes from "flipping the ball to other corner" - that is Acube hardware (but we use Hyperion OS on it), that is A-EON, these we develop as Amiga bounty etc.
Show of hands please: Who thinks our user relationship is bad?
I am actually not quite sure what you mean here. Of course it is ACube hardware, and you can actually use a non-Hyperion OS on it (Linux). The stock PC hardware is not done by Microsoft. And here's the surprise: Hardware drivers on Windows are not done by Microsoft either. Surprised?
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With 3-5 gfx cards and 3-5 sound cards supported?
How much programming knowledge do you actually have? Is it enough to make a qualified assumption? And it isn't 3-5 graphics cards. Let me summarize it for you:
Cedar Redwood Juniper Cypress Hemlock Palm Sumo Barts Turks Caicos
These are the graphcis cards that the RadeonHD Warp3D driver currently supports. I count 10.
We're working on this as good as we can, but there are limits. It's unfortunate we have to sometimes branch off into different directions, or adjust plans to suit a new situation. But that cannot be changed.
So yes, it is damn hard, and don't you dare suggest anything else. You're insulting all the developers working on this and giving it all they can.
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It seems that real use of PCI and PCI-E cards will be a weak knee of anyone that isn`t Microsoft. Or that dont have Linux community size development.
Old news, friend. Even Linux struggles to support more exotic hardware. It will always be like that, but that is not a big issue. Yes, you cannot use an NVidia card under OS 4, so what?
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Well if you look towards the future, you could drop Radeon 9000 series support and make a PCI-E 2 PCI converter for older boards of find a RadeonHD that can work in AmigaOnes, Pegs and SAM 440.
Gallium will not support these cards. You can already use PCI versions of RadeonHD's in most systems (although I think the Pegasos II firmware barfs on graphics cards behind a PCI2PCIE bridge)
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And it looks like it will never be. My gentle suggestion is that Hyperion / A-EON / Acube could have someone that would communicate politely, with much patience and culture to community - press releases or forums. You guys do have both much work to do and heavy stance that your choices are simply the best that allow no room for any second opinion.
I have been very patient with you, and have not been impolite as far as I can see. This is the communication you will get. The alternative is no communication at all. The problem is not the way of communication, but the fact that you don't want to hear what we have to say. It doesn't matter how it is said, the facts will not change.
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That is the biggest news of Amiwest and this year to my belief (let me know if there was something more important at least in software). Some idea of system requirements would be nice. Better who is doing the development (one person, team ...) and is any public release planned for first year of development?
System requirements: When it's done. There is no way to tell beforehand. Who does it: Why does it matter? It will be done when it's done.
You see, you demand knowledge that nobody is willing or able to give you. You got a news item on AmiWest. Take it for what it is, a piece of news. There is no need nor requirement from A-Eon or anyone else to put any more information to this. Any additional information will be released as it becomes available or as the developers seem fit. IF anybody intended to say something about the team size or system requirements, it would have been in the release, but there is no such thing.
Officially Libre requires 512MB RAM.
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God thanks the Warp3D software emulation that allows SAM 460 and X1000 users to have some joy.
As others have already pointed out (and I am an atheist anyway), God doesn't have anything to do with it. And the reason there is a software emulation possible for Warp3D is because Sam Jordan, Thomas Frieden, and myself actually did this. This is a typical display of the "wanna have" attitude.
Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
God has nothing to do with Alain Thellier's work. If you must thank someone, it's him (sending him a postcard of your region for example).
Taking things way too literally, and anti religious. The point was its good we have a mid solution, even its slow.
@ssolie Quote:
I'm no expert on religion but I don't think an omnipotent entity that spans both time and space gives a rats ass whether a Warp3D driver works on a 4000 series card or not.
Nice proof of humor, as well as that education and decency and well behav don`t always go along.
In the same joke matter, some believe its Google that is omnipotent these days, so it might care blah blah blah since some trace of case is avail
@ssolie Quote:
That is what I have been trying to do for a couple of years now. The developer blog has had regular updates and when I can I share information. What else do you want?
Oh, must say blog is the biggest improvement so far. Anything you can trow to users as positive news would be fine, thanks. Even when news are not good.
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I can understand why system requirements would be nice to know. I also understand the desire for a release date. I really don't understand why you need to know who is working on it.
Can only hope he will have more success then past OO kids effort, as well as that that person is not alone in the huge task.
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I also bought a couple of 4000 series cards for my X1000. I have since upgraded to a 6850 and have been quite happy with it. I suppose I should be in some web forum complaining as well.
Well you did know 6000 support is coming Yes, you can complain directly to Hans, A-EON or Hyperion
Since we have been told 4000 support will come for Gallium (and those early X series if I do get it right) now its all up to OS 4.2. So back to work for you
@rogue Quote:
Suffer? Don't you think that's a bit melodramatic?
No, people are left being 2D only for uncertain amount of time rendering SAM 460 and X1000 half usable. That is kind of suffering for those who want to see full potential of their hardware (which I suppose was the point of whole PPC transition)
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Your point... being?
All RadeonHD users are left in 2D dark until uncertain times of Gallium and OS 4.2 that has not yet been spoken even its late 2012.
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Again, what is your point? Yes, Warp3D support for these cards was never planned. Yes, due to delays with the OS A-Eon decided to fund these drivers as a stop-gap solution. What is your problem with that? I am quite sure that if you had a supported card, you would be singing quite a different song. As I said before, this is not a loss for those with 4000, but a win for those with 5000/6000
Surely, some lose some win. But again, that card is not yet sold with ANY SAM 460 or X1000 system. So those with 5000/6000 cards mainly seem to be beta testers.
However, that will change in time. It just time to change cards sold with those boards since 5000 and 6000 series are only to get Warp3D support, beside really old and hard to get 9000 and 9200 cards. It is a major jump forward, true, but kind of not so nice done one from user point of view.
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Speak for yourself but not for "all current SAM 460ex and X1000 owners". You are blowing tings up beyond proportions. Calling this a "betrayal" is bollocks.
You can find unsatisfied users all over - and they are all SAM460 and X1000 users. But it will change as soon as any RadeonHD 3D driver is out. People WILL change card for that, and as far as I remember driver will be free for X1000 and SAM460 users.
So are there any perspectives of using those new huge cards on SAM 440 knowing its PCI limits?
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Show of hands please: Who thinks our user relationship is bad? I am actually not quite sure what you mean here. Of course it is ACube hardware, and you can actually use a non-Hyperion OS on it (Linux). The stock PC hardware is not done by Microsoft. And here's the surprise: Hardware drivers on Windows are not done by Microsoft either. Surprised?
They certainly can be better.
Please dont have these M$ parallells. I do remember Microsoft signed tons of drivers at least as certification, developed some and surely hardware manufacturers do develop drivers.
So we should blame A-EON and ACube and demand drivers so they will probably outsource job to only company that can do it - you. And all that for OS that supports 5 boards and 10 cards or so.
Nevermind, some better working model where no hardware before drivers will be done ever again, should be introduced. Its quite sad when you cant actually use what you have, and this 4000 series situation is kind of the same, so user frustration there grows. Please do learn something from it, instead having kind of corporate answer to it. Thanks.
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So yes, it is damn hard, and don't you dare suggest anything else. You're insulting all the developers working on this and giving it all they can.
Certainly that is not my intention, but point is in fully supporting something and not doing it half way. In the present situation how long has it been since SAM 460ex has been around? Tested on Planeta Amiga 2006? And no Warp3D yet.
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I have been very patient with you, and have not been impolite as far as I can see. This is the communication you will get. The alternative is no communication at all. The problem is not the way of communication, but the fact that you don't want to hear what we have to say. It doesn't matter how it is said, the facts will not change.
If you look at the tone of replies, its not polite. But you are right, its better to nothing. Thanks for taking time and being informative.
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As others have already pointed out (and I am an atheist anyway), God doesn't have anything to do with it. And the reason there is a software emulation possible for Warp3D is because Sam Jordan, Thomas Frieden, and myself actually did this. This is a typical display of the "wanna have" attitude.
I meant thanks exactly to people that did it (and hope it will get some SAM460 and X1000 optimization if possible as its quite slow) including YOU. Could go to the archive and copy the developers names, yes, but you can replace God with your name here.
Anyway, it seems AmigaOS will have a next major jump with OS 4.2 and salute you for that, once its done.
Now, what do you say, wait for next blog release as its all one can get out of many questions. OK boss ...
I plan to publish an AmigaOS road map of sorts at some point which will include a list of features we want in 4.2 and future releases.
IMHO, I think it'd be better to only announce stuff that is complete enough that you know there are no (more) major problems to overcome.
Initially that might not make for very exciting anouncements, but after a while it would become a pleasant surprise to see stuff finished & available not too long (say 6 months) after it was originally announced, and people can't be disappointed when something takes a lot longer than *they* expected/hoped.
IMHO, I think it'd be better to only announce stuff that is complete enough that you know there are no (more) major problems to overcome.
Initially that might not make for very exciting anouncements, but after a while it would become a pleasant surprise to see stuff finished & available not too long (say 6 months) after it was originally announced, and people can't be disappointed when something takes a lot longer than *they* expected/hoped.
or release a roadmap with planned features and which releases they are scheduled for, but dates are probably a bad idea given the dynamics of our community. the amiga platform has a bright future and great folks working on it, but some information will only be used as ammunition by those who wish to see the platform fail.
at least that's how i see it.
-- eliyahu
"Physical reality is consistent with universal laws. When the laws do not operate, there is no reality. All of this is unreal."
5000/6000 ... You'll be able to get one for a mere 20-30 Euros.
I was imagining that a new card would be much more expensive (*), so that is a relief to hear. What would be the equivalent of a 4650, such that a new card wouldn't be a downgrade?
I had a go at answering my own question. Here are some PassMark (G3D Mark) scores: Radeon HD 4650 = 568 Radeon HD 5450 = 244 Radeon HD 5550 = 611 Radeon HD 6450 = 288 Radeon HD 6570 = 775
Unfortunately the 5550 seem very hard to obtain, while the 6570 costs in the region of 60 euros (about 2-3 times the cost you were suggesting).
EDIT: I *suppose* the answer is that anyone wanting Warp3D "now" (rather than just Gallium3D "later"), should get a cheap underpowered card that will still be good enough for Warp3D, but then switch back to the 4650 when Gallium3D arrives.
@eliyahu I always assumed that ssolie's roadmap would NOT have dates. I would rather not hear ANY long-range plans, because that tends to just lead to disappointment (e.g. "we must wait a long time for it" or "I am fed-up of waiting for it"). IMHO better to focus on the present (and near future).
This would also avoid OS4 "Osbourning" itself, with people always waiting for the next big thing, rather than just buying what is available right now.
EDIT: I *suppose* the answer is that anyone wanting Warp3D "now" (rather than just Gallium3D "later"), should get a cheap underpowered card that will still be good enough for Warp3D, but then switch back to the 4650 when Gallium3D arrives.
I think the answer is do whatever you want to but you aren't going to get everything for free.
It is nice to quote benchmarks and such but aren't we missing something critically important here? There is no software to utilize your higher benchmark cards. There is no point is comparing because the drivers aren't even finished yet. There really is no point in arguing at all because nothing has even been released yet.
Come back to the subject when drivers have shipped and we have a plethora of 3D games to run on them. Then I can compare my FPS to your FPS and we can compare how much we paid for our graphics cards and have something to actually talk about.
I'm sorry but all this seems like a big waste of time and energy. There isn't even any drivers yet for goodness sakes.
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But getting Warp3D (which was never expected) in the short term is good news for me, and if I didn't already have the 6850 card I wouldn't waste a second fretting about it. I'd just buy a 5xxx or 6xxx card. I mean, the cheaper ones are not very costly at all.
