More on the court case

@ssolie

Quote:

But do you really think that Amiga Inc. will continue to develop and enhance OS4? In know that they have some money, and they might invest a bit into the OS; but what happens if they do not get the return they are hoping for? I can see Amiga Inc. scrapping OS4 altogether. Of course, this would certainly be within their rights to do (after all, they are a business established for the purpose of making money).

My point, however, is this: Even though I think OS4 (and upward) can be made into a profitable business in the future (maybe a very distant future), in the short-term and mid-term we need a company and contributing developers who are willing to work for the love of the platform in spite of short-term losses, and be content waiting for the future to reap some long-term gains instead of dropping the project in the bin when the going gets tough. I just don't see the love and dedication in Amiga Inc. that will be required to bring about a successful future for our favorite OS.

___ Paul ___

@ssolie

You didn't say updated roadmap originally ( or I missed you saying it ).

The way I see it is that Amiga Inc have been and are in the way of AmigaOS4.0.

@PEB

Quote:

I don't think there is any realistic chance for OS4 to be developed further when Amiga Inc wins the lawsuit. Just ook on the forums and at the opinions of the developer team. Most of them would not partner with Amiga Inc.
If they get the sources, even the ones from the Friedens (I dont believe they have rights to it!), then OS4 would still look like Swiss cheese.
It would take years to get it complete again and bring it to the unexistent market...

Hi All,

I hope that I didn't misstate too much in my original report of the happenings in the hearing room.

Alot was said, BUT like I said, for the most part, it was all read in the first series of PDFs.

I mistakenly said nothing was requested to be _removed_ from admissions, BUT in fact there were two (or three) items, but they _were not_ removed, which is the most important part (and I pointed that out, because I remember the judge _not_ saying "okay, this will be taken out" or "It will be considered, I will tell you later of my decision").


Originally I stated that I felt that Hyperion Entertainment's lawyer was 55% and Amiga's was at 45%, if you'll recall, but I wanted to give Hyperion's lawyer as much as 60%, but wasn't too sure.

This all gets SO MURKY as BOTH parties seemed to do things at times that they weren't supposed to.

Like Hyperion Entertainment going along with Itec LLC, then later KMOS's claims that they "owned" all IP. Going as far as printing "KMOS" on the first AOS4.0 CD-ROM they released.

Amiga Inc. for their part, _selectively_ decide they're going to pay the $25K for the "contract" in disregard of other costs billed to them. It's clear in the contract that ALL OWED to them must first be paid, then the $25K.

On the other hand, there doesn't seem to be any evidence of Hyperion saying at _that_ time, "we need you to pay ~$450,000 to _this_ point (April 2003) in the development of AOS4.0". (I guess they _really_ needed some money then, and decided "well, we'll worry about it later", about informing Itec/KMOS/Amiga Inc. (Delaware) about the "extras". Was it unethical? I suppose. Does it break the contract? I have no clue. It's not like Amiga Inc. wasn't up to some hijinx of their own either, right?)

But then, Amiga Inc. who _emphatically_ state that they DO own _all source and object code_ because they paid the $25K in full, proceed to offer TWO MILLION $ for it!!!!! Isn't that "strange"?



You know, I'd like to see Amiga Inc. (who has SUCH the vested interest in AOS4.0), produce to the court an AmigaOne SE, an XE, _and_ a microAmigaOne, to show that they even KNEW what was going on in this development of "theirs". Surely, they would own _one_ of _each model_, and use it on a regular basis to monitor progress of their future "bread and butter"?

Weren't they AT ALL interested in the _progress_ of their investment?

How could they claim "ownership" and INTENT TO MARKET if they CAN'T EVEN demonstrate it to ANYONE??!?!

Obviously if they "own it" they DO "own it", even if they wanted to just throw the source code in the trashcan, BUT, they claim interest AND concern about it.... So, show that you even know what it IS.


A huge problem is WHEN is an OS "finished". That's VERY VAGUE.

Hyperion, I believe could say it was "finished" at ANY TIME after the first CD-ROM was sent out. WHO could "judge" this?

End users COULD complain "it's _not_ very reliable", but that's _opinion_, and others can only decide on it if they know (of) the person well enough, to weigh whether it's something they are willing to spend money on or not. (What I'm trying to say is, someone uses the very first release made, then it's down to people using it and saying "yes it's good" or "no, it needs more work", BUT, if Hyperion said "it's done", then technically "it's done". All that can be stated from there on in is peoples opinions of whether it REALLY IS done.... Do YOU trust THAT persons views/opinions enough to go and buy it? There isn't really a percentage anywhere carved in stone that declares "now it's done", I mean, it SHOULD be "100%" right? Well then MAI failed before Hyperion played ANY PART in it at all!!, but so have the BIGGEST COMPANIES in the world! Even intel CPUs sometimes rely on SW patches rather than doing recalls.)

The more "good reports" it gets, the MORE it's "finished", but we ALL KNOW, it's NOT "finished".

If it WAS "finished", would we need a 4.1, 4.2, 4.4....? (Okay, it's getting philosophical now, that's not really where I want to go.)



Bottom line, BOTH sides could effectively kill AOS4.0 if they want to.

HYPERION ENTERTAINMENT _delivered_ (AND THEN SOME!). They are competent, and they have a desire to take it as far as is possible.


What I see is, HYPERION ENTERTAINMENT wants to stay on as _partner_ in a JOINT VENTURE of the future of AOS4.0.....


I _do not_ see this as a problem. Let them have a percentage (and all the developers under Hyperion (the company)).


Amiga Inc. see this as a negative, but, choosing ANY OTHER path is a BIG mistake.


Hyperion is competent, and _dedicated_.

Giving them a percentage will make them 100% stand behind the product with improvements implemented and updates sold as quickly as is possible. ALL Amiga Inc. need to do is collect and cash royalty cheques. They could have NO employees!!!!!

This is "fair".

If Hyperion win the whole bowl of marbles, that's A O K with me, though. (Even preferable.)


Otherwise, any compromise, if it involves Hyperion NOT getting a fixed percentage of ALL sales on ALL HW platforms, they effectively lost, and it's wrong from my point of view.

Hyperion went the distance, they deserve a permanent partnership in the LEAST.


Seeing as it's gone to court now, Amiga Inc. may end up with nothing, even if they "win".

As I said, I briefly spoke with Hyperion Entertainment's lawyer after the hearing, and my opinion of him is that he sincerely wants to win his case for Hyperion because he feels they've been wronged, and also I feel that he wouldn't have led Hyperion to believe that they could win in court if they had a weak or flawed stance.


I know if I saw four lawyers in the other corner, I'd be (well, I'll leave it to your imagination) but he went to bat, and was very,very, good.



(Remember, lawyers don't like to take cases where they know they will lose. If Amiga Inc.'s big time law firm win, it'll be an also ran, but if Hyperion wins, this will be huge for Mr. B. Kinsel.)

Hi all,

I'm not much on doing a lot of writing, so have just been reading (lurking) for the last weeks. I finally joined up today, but please don't expect me to do a lot of writing. I'm not good at it, and I don't enjoy it

I've been an Amiga user for 18-19 years. My first experience with the Amiga was my sons A1000 (I'm 68 years old), and I then bought an A500 when they became available. Graduated to an A2000 (all decked out), then a couple of A1200s. After the A1200s had both died, I reluctantly bought a Windows machine and installed WinUae (Amiga Forever). Shortly after it became obvious that the AOne/AOS4 was really going to happen, I bought an AOne XE-G4. I have had no problems with it, the only thing I've had to do was a new battery after almost 3 years of use.

I don't do anything fancy or exciting, just a lot of genealogy (Scion) and writing up the results (FinalWriter). A little email (Simplemail) and some browsing with AWeb. My needs are simple, and my Amiga serves them well

With that introduction, I have to comment that I've never been quite so down as this court case has made me. Prior to getting my AOne, I had become rather used to the WinUae emulation. Now, I consider it a pitiful example of the real thing. AOS4 has spoiled me. That windows computer (with WinUae) has become my wife's computer, and just about the only thing it is used for is WinUae -- the one exception being scanning genealogy documents. I had really been hoping so much to purchase another new AOS4 computer. I think that dream has completely disappeared now.

I just can't imagine any favorable resolution to this court case proposition. It is a lose-lose situation in my view. If Hyperion wins, there still is no license for hardware. If Amiga wins, who will continue the development. They absolutely need each other. Amiga can come up with all the hardware in the world, but without Hyperion (the developers, to be more specific), the Amiga is going nowhere. Likewise Hyperion (the developers) can improve the Amiga until hell freezes over, but are going nowhere without hardware. In my view, the end of the road has finally come.

I'm not taking sides, mind you. I'm pleased that Amiga (for whatever reasons) allowed the Amiga to continue by signing up with Hyperion and Eyetech. And the achievments of Hyperion and the developers has been absolutely unbelievable. I don't really care who wins this dumb court case, or even who was to blame. All I really care about is the Amiga, and that situation is utterly bleak, IMHO.

That windows computer (with WinUae) has been acting up for 6 months. Heck, it is already several ( 6 or 7) years old. It is likely on it's last legs. It needs to be replaced, and I was hoping to get an Amiga, and just keep the windows machine for scanning. That dream seems to have evaporated. My AOne is doing great, but it isn't exactly getting any younger either. I wanted to have the opportunity to buy a replacement when it starts having problems.

I feel like it has now finally all fallen apart for the Amiga. I see no choice but to go out and buy another windows machine to replace my wife's ailing one, install Amiga Forever on it, and use it as our (blech) Amiga. It is really deppressing to imagine, but I see no alternative. It would be sad to see an old man cry, but that is just what I feel like doing.

Regards,
Don Feldbruegge

@DonF

I understand your sentiments all too well. OS4 is a real spoiler, so much so, I have not used it on purpose for a while now.

If I have to go for another OS (I have had it with MS), I don't want to be thinking "but with OS4 all I need do..."

I hate people talking about OS4 as a hobby OS it is not, it is even with some missing features, it is a joy to use. I am far more productive on it than on anything else.

OS4 can be stripped down to bare bones, it is an ideal platform for hosting (OS5/ AmigaAnywhere), and should be (stripped down to bare essentials) an easy port.

I keep saying that there is a window of opportunity for Hyperion and Amiga Inc, but that it will close soon.

Other people out there are going to see the potential of PS3, domestic servers and a small OS that carries a application environment that is mostly cross platform (see REBOL).

In fact if REBOL makes a cross platform, host OS, even if it is a LINUX kernel (with hopefully not much else) I will go that direction, unless this mess is cleared up soon.

Ideally, a cut down AOS4, hosting REBOL, with minimal porting of compiled code would do me. Running a full OS4 on a desktop and PS3, and a minimal host on small devices.

Hyperion could maintain and distribute the OS4 full, and Amiga Inc the application environment and the cut-down ported version.

I believe this may be the major reason why AI is desperate to get it hands on the sources for OS4.

Hosting REBOL or TAO would be ideal OS5/AmigaAnywhere. OS4 cut down and adapted to different Hardware could be very small indeed (I am thinking five megs or less). Perhaps there is a new solution that is neither REBOL or TAO.

But I agree, this is a very frustrating time and the first time I have considered dumping it personally and going in another direction - if REBOL comes up with its own solution I am afraid at this moment I would follow their lead.

@Mitch
Quote:
If the OS4 developers were actually paid I would start to believe that. From the court docs so far it seems Hyperion completed the project and have still not paid their developers. That is standing in the way big time in my book.

@ssolie

Have the developers said they have stopped work because of being unpaid?

The developers can only be paid when revenue comes in, that can only happen from sales. Sales can only come in when hardware is allowed to ship as OS4 can only ship OEM.

I would ask you what do the contracts with the individual developers actually say with regards to what and when they should be paid?

@Mitch who said Quote:
What if OS4 did have value as a living product? Wouldn't it then make sense for Amiga Inc to want it badly? Not for selling to our small community, but for another market segment altogether?

Unless there is evidence for it, I won't believe that Amiga Inc paid Hyperion to port OS4 to the IBM Artic (PDA) reference platform as just some kind of tactical manuver against Hyperion. Not to mention that I can't see how that would work anyway, since it just gave Hyperion extra cash (which AI knew they were lacking) or indebited Amiga Inc to Hyperion even more.

As I've said before on AW.net, Amiga Inc seem to want to use OS4 as some kind of PDA-like OS. This is actually an incredibly smart thing to do, because there is a sizable consumer market starting to appear for an Internet/Email/etc tablet device - look no further than Palm's recently announced Foleo, not to mention Nokia's N800 (and the older 770). Of course, OS4 would need a bit of extra work to compete with these devices, but I guess that's why Amiga Inc want control of OS4...

Perhaps Amiga Inc want OS4, precisely because AmigaAnywhere (in it's current form) has failed to live-up to their expectations? OS4 is the only thing they have left.

edit: The last person I expected to be painting a rosy(ish) picture of Amiga Inc was me! But some of the recent documents released to the court forced me to change my mind. (Perhaps it will change again, because we still have very little real information to go on, but at the moment the above is my best guess as to the motivations of Amiga Inc.)

@ChrisH

I never said it was just some tactical manouver. You do business with the people you need to do business with. This is difficult to explain in clear terms.

Mitch.

@ChrisH

I want to tread carefully for a number of reasons.

I assumed in the beginning AI saw OS4 as a goodwill gift product, a sweetie thrown to the community. Hence the contracts were flimsy, and the improvements asked for were small, though AI did want its IP back.

I also assume that the problem with TAO was not that it didn't work well, but that it was designed too well as a hosted device - drivers would have been a monumental task, and would have effectively meant more LINUX kernel type approaches (YUK!!).

Then as it turns out OS4 becomes better, the abstraction layers, the small foot print, the speed, and the real bonus of quick booting and powering-off. Roadshow and any number of small and big features, make OS4 as a full desktop substantial, but as a cut down underlying OS, something else again.

Now AI wants it back big time, I would guess almost by accident it becomes exactly what they need. This would also make sense of Amiga India.

Hyperion, wants more for their work, and we get a Mexican stand-off.

I might be reading the whole situation wrongly, clearly there is a lot of history and past frictions.

I believe a lot could be fixed with a good licensing arrangement.

If I am right and Amiga Inc is looking at a stripped down easily ported OS4 "kernel" to host OS-Anywhere, then it makes sense that they want all the source code.

What I would suggest sounds strange.

OS-Anywhere licences for SAM but not for OS4. It becomes the embedded/ server version.

OS4 Licenses for ACK, it becomes the desktop version.

Hyperion-Acube become world wide distributors of OS4 and continues development - especially for the PS3.

OS5-Anywhere, also hosts on OS4, but as a third party add-on sold through Amiga Inc.

AI holds the complete IP for OS4, but the development and distribution of only OS5-Anywhere. enabling it to concentrate on small devices, embedded, and domestic servers, while Hyperion-Acube concentrate on full desktop systems re ACK/TRIOKA.

The cross interests of SAM and ACK compliment each other.

It will probably never happen, but Mexican stand-offs are usually cured by finding another approach rather than trying to win the unwinable and both going down.

hatchi over on amigaworld.net has somehow got hold of the judges decision on the injunction.

The result is Amiga Inc has NOT got its preliminary injunction and will need to decide whether or not it wants to proceed to full trial.

Haatchi quotes:

Quote:

I can't say I am surprised.

Original reference here:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/v ... wmode=flat&order=0#384831

Champagne corks will be popping in Belgium that is for sure. Amiga Inc doesn't have a sterling track record in the courts and it really puts eggs on some of the commentators faces who claimed to have intimate legal knowledge and were certain that it would go Amiga Incs way. ( and no I am not referring to anyone on this site here )

However this isn't the end, Amiga Inc could still take this to full trial and wait out the result at HUGE expense.

As GregS said, justice is unpredictable.

@Mitch

To me this looks like the court case might take much loooonger than some have expected. Especially peoples like Tigger who thoughts that everything is clearly in favour of Amiga Inc. It is not.

The whole court case looks more misty than ever and I am not sure how some topics are ever to be resolved if both parties don't come to an agreement outside the court. I don't expect this to happen. Once you have unleashed the attornies and lawyers, there is hardly a way back.

I don't believe that there will be any hardware for OS4 in this year.

@Mitch

Mitch wrote:
hatchi over on amigaworld.net has somehow got hold of the judges decision on the injunction.

The result is Amiga Inc has NOT got its preliminary injunction and will need to decide whether or not it wants to proceed to full trial.


Thanks for this.

Geez, they're all crazy to want this to go to a full juried trial. Can you imagine trying to explain this mess to a bunch of clueless people? All the seemingly shady dealings would come out in the open, on both sides, they have to realize this. I wouldn't think AInc could really afford that with the goofy Kent deal going on -- they're already being watched. I suspect AInc would go for the sympathy vote, which is what it sounded like they were trying to do with the judge. I certainly hope the judge's decision pushes them into thinking arbitration might be their best bet after all.


We need more popcorn here...

Kay

@thread

The court document can be downloaded from the merlancia.us website.

court document