We so need an updated browser!

@Capehill

Ah, ok, i thought that these options are already in, seems i was wrong and only the switch exists, but with noop functions.

Thanks for the clarification

Maybe hnl_dk will/can have a look at some point?

I read through all of this thread and the one thing I don't get is this, TenFourFox seems current and works on very low end Mac PPC hardware even. Those developers that maintain it cant be far off from being able to compile it in a way that it will build for Morphos, AmigaOS and AROS I would think if they got help or even a donated X5000 board. We are talking like what, $4000 USD to get a couple of the most active devs a machine? Am I missing something here?

@AcillClassics

Would they want to do so ? What about our developpers taking the source and try to compile TenFourFox ?

Those working on TenFourFox know PowerPC Mac rellay well (and also how to develop on Mac OS PowerPC), do you think they would understand and work on AmigaOS 4.1 for example ?

Sources are available, it's up to us to work on them but I think it's a huge work and I highly doubt anyone will take the challenge to port it (unless a bounty could motivate some).

Pardon my more lengthy posts; I don't usually have the luxury of time to check the board/respond often. So when I do, I brain dump....

My opinion is that Firefox and its derivatives are not going to die out in any foreseeable future. Its user base is massive. Even if the rendering engine gets swapped out for, say, Webkit, the rest of the Firefox architecture and, more importantly, its entire ecosystem is just too well developed, and the end-product is just too good, and its install base is so large, that it's a very compelling/solid foundation to rest on.

With that in mind, the more I dig into things, the more compelling the case I see for a port of TenFourFox (with whatever upstream Firefox ESR they're using at a given time) for big-endian OS4/MorphOS; and, similarly, a port of that same upstream Firefox ESR version for little-endian AROS x86 / AROS on ARM.

I mention both the big- and little-endian ports of Firefox/TenFourFox because it would seem to me that the porting effort to both big-endian and little-endian Ami OS's would share a bunch in common. I stand to be very much corrected on that.

That is, if done correctly, I think we could first coordinate little-endian ports of any Firefox ESR release to AROS x86/AROS on ARM (as I imagine that's a bunch less less effort than the big-endian stuff); and then use the up-to-date knowledge from the little-endian port to help with the same-version TenFourFox port to big-endian Ami platforms.

As I think you can see, I love the idea of collaborating with the TenFourFox peeps; though I pose the question -- is a hardware Ami board/PC strictly necessary? I know that I, when I don my developer hat, greatly prefer emulation for test environments than physical hardware. I imagine other devs share that sentiment.

Additionally, I think the $ used for hardware would more beneficially go to a bounty.

On the topic of collaboration with TenFourFox's devs, I think we could also see some developer uptake if we think of things in reverse -- what if some of us could help with the upstream TenFourFox ports/supports for Mac. Then also potentially recruit the same help porting to big-endian Ami platforms?

Lastly, unless someone informs me differently, I think all of these issues with browser ports, whether Webkit-based/Firefox/TenFourFox/etc., still need someone to port at least a C++11 Standard Library (whether GNU's or other). Maybe even a C++14 Standard Library.

I pose all these thoughts/questions because I'm still firming up the picture in my skull as to how much I'd like/be able to contribute to the effort; either myself and/or donating some of my developers' time from one of my tech companies.

@stonecracker
Quote:
You should be able to test using WinUAE. Personally, I prefer using real hardware.

Quote:
Yes, and we need that for other stuff too. I'd love to be able to use C++11's multi-threading instead of having to work around its absence.

If you plan to do any work on the stdlibs, then please contact the adtools maintainers first. You don't want to duplicate any existing efforts. Plus, some people have already thought about how some parts should be implemented.

Hans

@K-L

I guess what I am asking then is what is the hold up? The endian issues would be solved in those ports right? Why are they not pulling out the needed code to fix things?

@AcillClassics
Quote:

Who is the "they" that you are referring to?

To undertake such a task of porting a new browser, updating existing browser options i.e. Timberwolf would require existing capable developers to be unsatisfied with the current available options enough so to want to bring about a resolution to the current problems.

Truth is no developers can be bothered because they are time poor, there is no financial incentive and no one wants the task of maintaining a port once completed.

Despite this it seems Hyperion and A-eon would like to insist that next generation AmigaOS and hardware is viable and insists we should remember when computing was fun? I propose computing is not fun on AmigaOS anymore when you can't browse the internet comprehensively with the existing solutions.

@Fairdinkem

Well, stonecracker is a developer who is interested...

In the meantime, how could we give developers a bigger incentive to work on this?

Hans


P.S., Collaborating with the TenFourFox team does sound like a good way forward. You really need a team to keep up with web standards.

@Hans

"Yes, and we need that for other stuff too. I'd love to be able to use C++11's multi-threading instead of having to work around its absence."

Yes, would be great!

@Hans

I think the only way this can work is if the owners of the operating system are backing it, personally I think in modern computing the operating system is dead if you can't surf the internet comprehensively, meeting established standards of the mainstream. I think its in Hyperions interests to be actively supporting/developing a modern browser even if it is maintaining an active port.

If there is a financial component required from the community I think people may come on board if there were some assurances that the Timberwolf debacle doesn't happen again.

I note that some months ago, some posters/readers here noted the issues around the OS4 developer toolchain, native vs. cross-compiler, etc. being a barrier to development of a new browser/updated browser.

I couldn't agree more. I indeed just experienced a day and a half of irritation with the same thing.

But I got a perfectly functioning cross-compiling toolchain working on Cygwin64 for Windows 10 x64. Same machine I'm running an AmigaForever7 + OS4 for Classics + AmiKitX + FlowerPot-installed OS4 emulator on.

That's using a gcc 6 compiler on Cygwin to generate a gcc 5.4 toolchain for OS4.

I almost got the exact same toolchain working for bash-on-ubuntu-on-Windows (uwin) setup.

I simply couldn't find good/complete/updated instructions on how to do this -- anywhere. So I set out to fix that myself.

I've set out the very detailed/step-by-step instructions on the cross-compiler thread on this site for posterity and to save someone else a day (or week!) just trying to get going. Bottom line, most developers simply will throw up their hands long before that time. Can't blame them.

My instructions, while focused on Cygwin and uwin should be helpful to any *BSD/Linux/Mac developer too.

Meaning, one more barrier to entry is hopefully removed, either completely, at least mostly, for someone else.

@stonecracker Quote:
I guess you mean this?
http://www.amigans.net/modules/xforum ... id=108076#forumpost108076

Maybe it would be better to create a new thread for it, rather than 'hiding' it half way down the second page of a thread?

It also might make sense to put it in the Development/AmigaOS4 forum (rather than the general OS4 forum that thread was on) :
http://www.amigans.net/modules/xforum ... SC&sortname=f.forum_order

P.S. I myself use the AmiDevCpp compiler on Windows, as it supports all Amiga flavours... however, the developer seems to have no time to support it these days, so it's slightly broken on Windows 10 (only the Windows-executable compiling side, but that's a problem for me when I want to compile executables for all OSes that PortablE supports, so I'm going to have to try to fix it at some point; it may just need updated GCC executables, as the ones it has are really really ancient). (I also suspect that it won't get updated to support AROS's v1 ABI (esp 64-bit), so it'll eventually be useless for AROS.)

@ChrisH


I like AmiDevCPP, but wanted a much more supportable/plug-in/build-from-source alternative that didn't bundle in any IDE.

Less of a code maintenance problem when we can always pull from a central adtools Git repo and go from there with anyone's favourite IDE.

The natural choice for AmiDevCPP was Cygwin, of course, as was mine.

I figured putting the instructions on the Cross-Compiling thread would be a natural fit. But perhaps a new thread entitled Cross-Compiling for Amiga OS4 PPC from Cygwin / Bash on Ubuntu on Windows 10+?

Might help with general Google searching with such a title. Make it easier for other Amiga developers/potential devs to find.

@stonecracker

welcome back

@stonecracker Quote:
Admittedly my use of AmiDevCPP is a bit perverse: I only use the GUI as a quick way to test compile single executables (completely ignoring the rest of the IDE), and I managed to circumvent the GUI entirely, so that I can cross-compile multiple programs for multiple OSes from the command line using a single 'script'...

I wonder if your cross-compiling approach could be used for other Amiga flavours (OS3, MOS & AROS) ? (I don't even have the time to look-at / experiment-with your approach at the moment, so just idle speculation.)

@Fairdinkem
Quote:

Aside from the great work Hans has done to expand our graphics card options, I don't see much that's been done to improve OS4 functionality. Aside from improved graphics and Odyssey, there is little I can do on my current system that I couldn't do with OS4.0 on my (now gone) µA1. Without an up-to-date browser our OS4 systems will just become expensive game consoles. Personally, I won't find many reasons to turn on my OS4.x computer without complete Internet access. To AEON & Hyperion I would say: Forget making pretty OS4 component replacements and give us a browser that will keep us using an AmigaNG system instead of a PC.

@xenic

I agree, would like a A-Eon/AmigaKit/Hyperion/other to work on up to date "we pay for" web browsing.

For me, I would pay good money for a web program that is up to date and comes out with periodic updates.

A computer w/o more internet functionality will be used much less.

TJ

@AmigaSociety

Yeah I would be happy with a payment system to fund the maintenance of a modern browser preferable Firefox (Timberwolf) not tenfourfox.

Honestly, I'v setup again my PowerBook G4 1,67Ghz and tried different browsers.

TenFourFox is too slow to be useable. But Leopard Wekit is really fast.