Company<->User communication...Is it still a thing today?

Here is a new thread covering the rules of this site to not derail other topics.

I am *very* much interested in realistic and honest communication from AEon about the status and ongoing development of AmigaOS4.
Two reasons:
1) As a paying customer, but a mere user, I have no access to beta versions and any development updates (since there were no physical updates for years for non-beta testers)
2) I am about to lose faith in any company dealing with AmigaOS nowadays.

If you want to keep me as a customer and user...here's your chance...and I'm sure I'm not the only one.


To kick it off, here's the interesting part from the detailed thread:

Poster: TrevorDick

@kas1e

>> even if the kernel under AEON's hands now, developing of it was and still very slow. I can't see how such a speed will help to produce anything which needs changes in. Taking aside if it ever will be released. I just didn't see how with such speed of developing anything can be done<<

Quick correction. The kernel is owned by me and controlled by the ExecSG Team lead by Steven Solie. A-EON has no ownership and is not involved. As for progress, I'm pleased to say it is going well. Steven will provide a full update at Amiwest 2020.

TrevorD

---

Poster: kas1e

@Trevor

Quote:

Quick correction. The kernel is owned by me and controlled by the ExecSG Team lead by Steven Solie. A-EON has no ownership and is not involved.


For users, AEON = Trevor, so not a big deal anyway as everyone thinks AEON it's you :)


Quote:

As for progress, I'm pleased to say it is going well.


What you mean by going well? Developing is very slow! The last beta release was long ago. Some things still need to be sorted out (like much slower speed of new scheduler in warp3dnova apps) and so on. Saing it "going well" to the users without any other info, it reminds again those amiga-words games like now users will think that there some "uber-cool features to be expected" and will be released tomorrow.

Was there anything being done about that DMA code added to the kernel? I mean, on last year's Amiwest there were talks that Jamie add DMA engine to the kernel, but is there any component using it? At least in the kernel itself? I think the answer is NO because it is still unfinished, right ?:) Dropped on the half of the way.


Quote:

Steven will provide a full update at Amiwest 2020.


Oh no, not again! :)

It will be talking about plans and the future, which never happens, or take tens of years for simple things. Nothing interesting. He probably will make a presentation about how to make presentations and presentations about him being team lead so everyone will know it (as that seems very important for him to know that we all know that he is team lead of anything).

Anyway, what about going sane and logical way: Without all that amigaos4 games with words, just giving to users honest and open status of developing every 3 months for example? No, not that status "is going well", but concrete technical issues, how problems are fixed, who works on what, when, why something takes longer, etc, etc.

But, that is ritorical, i am sure that will not happen. I do not know why no one when it connected to amigaos4 think it is necessary to communicate with users offten and in honest and open way.

I believe that what we discussed here is valid. The lack of communication from the main players and the lack of updates in software turns people away. Adding to that the price of the hardware that is supported by AmigaOS 4, it's not weird having the OS 4 users shrinking every month.

I believe that we shouldn't wait every year the AmiWest to hear news and plans. If every company, and team were giving updates to the community even once a month, people would be more happy. That's what keep them together. And keep them inspired.

Unfortunately, the platform dies and our shouts are not heard.

@George

And to note, the platform died not because there is no interest in it. There is a lot of interest, even in os4 only. Just everything about communication from owners (be it AEON or Hyperion) is absolutely fiasco.

Every project started always delays much (which is understandable), but the lack of communication and lack of organizing professionalism (remember all those excuses "it's just a hobby!") killing all interest. Another excuse "COVID-19", like, other ones didn't work in the same situation and didn't deliver. Or what is better "lawsuits", like, those lawsuits anyhow stop to release just a bunch of little bug fixes in one archive. Peoples in charge just gives a fuck. And I can understand that they have no interest. What I didn't understand, why then they do all this at all and didn't move along? I mean for what they invest in lawsuits at all if they can't release stuff at least in the process.

I can understand if it was like this everywhere, but no. It really seems only connected to OS4. On all other retro platforms also weird things happen (as everywhere in life), but everyone knew that communication is the key.

See, they take from somewhere pattern like keep silent, once in time bring some shitty kind of update, like, you know those magic words "going well!", "We don't want to say, but there is a surprise!" and so on, and then again keep silent and nothing. Like, does not matter what users think. But that should be the only what is matters!

It's just there no professionals when it comes to communication. And no one in charge, be it Hyperion or AEON didn't think it is important to hire (yeah, for money !) a "communicator".

Hyperion is absolutely silent. I mean totally. Nothing from them in the last half of the year (and before also nothing interesting). Some developers keep trying to fix bugs and do something, but that nothing.

AEON start more or less energetic, and now, when Mattew seems to be in hope to handle everything ALONE (how it damn possible ?), we can see the second fiasco: No Enhancer releases (some things like hardware video decoding done a long time ago, Goos add to Emotion everything to support it, and nothing released since that time for a YEAR ! ). And go try to communicate with Mattew about. It's like a scream to "black hole".

I even laugh about needs to add something necessary to Warp3DNova right now, as Goos request for their games to make it works on amigas, and nothing being done about for month or two. And that also because ppls who rule (Mattew ? ) didn't find it important enough and didn't tell Hans to do so, in favor of some other projects. It just means they give a fuck what users will have now. And how long they will be their customers.

Or how you about that idea, to buy all the rights to programs, release them in enhancers, and never update them? :)

Or about reimplementing the same classes, which done in os4 already, just to have new ones, with new bugs which no one will find because of the smaller user base :)

And I don't want to say about the fiasco with Tabor and incompatibly CPU choice. Who is that guy who agrees to use that CPU and say "ok" to start to make boards on it? I mean, if there wasn't a professional who can explain why it a bad choice, what about hire such a professional, and not work just with dunno who.

In other words, big fat ass, that what we have now :)

@Raziel

There is more than enough to do, its not necessary to wait for someone else doing something.

I but I get everyone’s frustration, I run into few issues that should by fixed, in RoadShow and AmigaInput, and always get blowen away, when I point out that the implementation is broken. Some people are too argent to take criticism.

@kas1e

Well, that's rich.

I didn't follow that Tabor board development, because I'm not interested, but I understand from your post that they used a foreign cpu on it?
Really?
I mean, there were so many pleas in the past to move to x86 for better hardware availability and they did not take that path when switching to a foreign CPU?

I may have missed some important details on this, but I'd feel genuinely screwed over by this decision, if it would still interest me enough to care for new hardware...but I bet others will feel just the same.

Were they sitting around pondering which CPU to use and thought:
Why not use x86 for a payable low-entry board?
But no, let's f*** them over once more with another end-of-the-line cpu/hardware combo WE have power over and let them pay for it...

...

and to stay on topic, was there ever an explanation to this decision?
If there was, I have missed it...

@Raziel
By non-incompatible CPU I mean that it still PPC, just with incompatibly FPU. So there were needs to write an emulation layer for compatibility reasons. It is done as I can see from the beta list, but take a pretty lot of time and resources. And I do not know if everything is absolutely ok with speed and compatibility in that terms currently.

@Raziel

Yeah this obsession about sticking with PPC is just ridiculous. It won't get this anywhere else than to stupidly expensive and quirky hardware. This was plain obvious 20 years ago and it's hilariously obvious now.

x86 or ARM would be the obvious choice. I mean, imagine running AmigaOS4 on a Raspberry PI and the exposure that could give.

If it's so damn important to keep developing hardware in the community then I'm sure there would be lots of business cases you can go for in the arm space, whereas there's practically none in the ppc sphere.

No I don't give a shit if that breaks all existing OS4 software. Either you go somewhere or you go nowhere.

@Raziel

Quote:
The thing is, A-EON does NOT develop AmigaOS4. It's Hyperion who should provide "realistic and honest communication" in this regard.

From A-EON, we at least have Trevor's blog. Which is a personal account of things, I know, but it's better than nothing. I agree that a company should keep a company blog, to maintain communication with the userbase on a professional level. I don't understand why Trevor hasn't considered this idea yet: an A-EON blog covering Trevor's personal stories, Enhancer-related information from Matthew, and kernel-related info from the Exec SG Team. All in one place, all involved parties taking turns to keep the public in the know.

@trixie
Quote:

Because Trevor is not in the "software developing" business, but mostly paying for I assume. And those ones who work with him didn't explain the necessity to communicate with users with honest and permanent updates. But hey, "team lead" for ExecSG and "black hole" for Enhancer, what do you expect :) Maybe they just don't want to do so and telling Trevor that this is not necessary. Dunno. All that "info from Amiwest" it's more like cheap talks. There should be normal permanent updates about states. Don't have time? Then why not hire for a cheap one of us, to be a "communication" guy? If they will continue like that, they will lose the whole user base (though, I assume they lose it already, one more year and there will be no one if both companies will continue like this).


As for information about "enhancer" from Mattew .. :) Are you about this Mattew who will give any technical and explaining and honest information? I am sure he will not. He even didn't understand the importance of releasing normal change logs with enhancer, explaining what was changed/fixed/where/why, but instead just "component xXx was updated" :) Just a laugh. Updated how? Damn, just pure unprofessionalism in this regard. Take a look at how morphos guys release their updated: clean, slick, full of the necessary information. But no, we go another route, make things worse than they can be in all the other world!

It should be someone else, who is a "communicate" guy. Mattew is a black hole when it comes to communication. Remember how everything is ignored, when are we trying to explain how to made beta-testing of enhancer better? Or for example, how he threatens Goos asking that hardware accelerated video need it right now and "today", and didn't release a shit about for a year and make it collecting dust? Or, damn, take that AEON site, where some links just broken and can't be fixed for years! Professional indeed, nothing to say :) Or how they for 3 or how many years can't get that there need someone else to work on the sound driver for that damn Tabor :) Or how they can't release updated zzd10h tools on which Javier works a few months ago and they still can't be put to amistore db. Or, how that releases of Enhancer in whole done: different versions, subversions, instead of just a single one, a mess! Professionals, nothing to say. I feel there are only professionals when it comes to control something, then yes, and AEON and Hyperion both professional there :)

@kas1e
Wait. In my opinion all the people you mentioned do care about the platform and the community. They really do, otherwise they would do something else. What I believe is that they have a lot of things in their plate and the agony to support all of them and create new stuff as well. This is not easy task to maintain. And I agree that if there is a need of more people to get involved, let's do that.

But have in mind that no company can rely on the good will of people. They need professionals and they are not cheap. So, the issue here might be an infinite loop.

@all
We, as community and people have to be more open on helping, and discuss without attacking anyone. Some might say that they don't communicate much because of forum trolls and personal attacks. Thank God, this forum is not like that and I am sure we can all have a productive discussion here.

What I would like to see from A-Eon, Hyperion and AmigaKit, which are the main players behind AmigaOS 4 and AmigaOne hardware is:
- Release of A1222 before the end of the year, with working audio. For me this should be the number one priority for all the parties
- Release of the Enhancer v2 and the free package of the new classes before the end of the year
- Updates on software and hardware progress to the community at least once a month, with realistic timelines
- New updates of software and bug fixes on AmigaOS 4 through AmiUpdate. If this is not possible, I would like to know why and what are the plans for future OS update
- Updates from ExecSG team at least once per month on the progress and new ideas
- Release of a new SDK that will support compiling software for A1222
- Communication with people in technical matters, so to increase developers
- Document the knowledge that a few people have on creating stuff, so that this knowledge can be used from more people, i.e. how to create drivers or how to support USB hardware. If this needs to have access to closed software, create the tools so that anyone can use to create that software. If that information is already out there, then communicate better where people can find them and how to use it
- The ExecSG team has a lot of experience on development. I would expect them to have a Blog where at least once per month one of them would release a blog post with technical information on a matter he got involved, what difficulties he had and how he solved them. This would spread the information and inspire people. If they are X people, they would write a blog post every X months, that would take Y hours to do. The benefits would be great from that. And if they don't want to create a Blog, there are other websites to do so (OS4Coding.net, Amigans.net).

They have to realize that the Amiga community it's not only fan boys... They are customers that need people to talk with them. And this should be done by companies' websites - blogs - social networks and on third party forums like amigans.net.

Otherwise, I am sorry but "the party is already over".

@walkero
Quote:

As you can see from the beta list, Hyperion owners do not care about the community at all anymore. Those developers who still work on and which left do care, yes, but Hyperion itself does not. Because if they care, what they can't make a release of at least a few bugfixes which people wait for years, and because of not delivering those fixes just loose interest and disappears from os4?

How it possible that Hyperion does not understand that? The only explain: they do not care anymore. And to be honest, before they weren't very communicative as well.

As for AEON: yes, they do care. But the lack of professionalism when it comes to communication with users, when it comes to releasing technical notes of what was changed (and make it as 100% must! not just if / when someone from developers care to write it), killing all their good initiatives.

Besides, if one can't handle everything (hi Mattew), then do hire someone and pay him a shiny 200-300$ per month so he can do all the dirty work about communication and everyone from a team, one time in a month should explain what they do and how. Not funny for them? Yes, but that is the cost of professionalism, doing something if its not fun and hobby.


Quote:

Yes, everything you write after are correct. That need to be done like this. But if it wasn't , it will not. I don't see any energy anymore from anyone involved to chaneg radically their patters of making deals.

@Trevor, Mattew, Tim

Care to comment ?

Just my own thoughts:
- Communication is important, but what I would love to see is things happening... some might argue and say that there's lots of things done, ok -> how about releasing those updates/patches?

- For me AmigaOS has always been the 'home' - MorphOS comes close, but somehow it feels something between AmigaOS and Linux but what's good on that OS is that *they do releases* and updates are coming regularly.

Updates and releases don't have to be huge - 'major rewrites' - small updates are more than welcome, just "keep ball rolling"...

It's the same old story we've been discussing for years.
Unfortunately the management of this operating system is carried out without any logical technical criteria, as if "political" interest was a priority over the technical evolution of AmigaOS, and the more time passes, the more things get complicated instead of simplifying themselves in a logical way.

Let's take the Enhancer Package for example. for what absurd reason this absolutely essential package will not be integrated directly into AmigaOs4 instead of selling them separately?
Yet it would not be so difficult even assuming to pay two different entities .. the price of each copy of AmigaOS4 could repay off the work of both companies involved and everyone will be happy, including the users..

Then other example do we want to talk about the development of the new AmigaOS 3.2?
of course I have a lot of respect for the old 68k system addicts, but there was really all that need to update a vintage system like os3 when you have been developing AmigaOS4 for years.

Then we want to talk about all the money thrown into childish lawsuits of no interest at all instead of using this little money to pay the developers..
unfortunately years and years pass but the way of doing business of those who manage the destinies of the amiga world on a commercial level is always the same, they don't learn from mistakes and they continue to follow the same path... yet simple common sense would be enough, there is no need to have millions od dollars/euro to manage normally the development of a project with a minimum of rationality and communication with users and MorphOS is an example..

@samo79

I am of course not the spokesman of Thomas R. but I have read something about it.

Basically behind 3.1.4 and 3.2 are two developers (Thomas Richter and Olaf Barthel) and both neither involved nor interested in AOS4. So development of OS4 was not affected by it. Additionally all involved work for free and Hyperion can make money with it. Weired business... unfortunately the money will propably go to Ben H. and lawsuits finally and not in OS4 (or OS3.2)

@samo79
Quote:

When the time comes to test AmigaOS 3.2 you will see the tremendous job they did there and how necessary, IMO, this is. The team behind the development of the new version of AmigaOS 3 does a great job there.

I wonder how this team keeps working and I hope soon they are going to release it, without get influenced by Covid. I wonder.

@walkero

how should software development be affected by covid?

You are organized by electronic media and internet because the devs are not at one place

Lack of OS development (or Enhancer) cannot excuse with covid. Covid affected supply of electronic parts at beginning of year but I do not think that this is still the case.

@OlafS3

An interest obviously still, as to develop 3.2 they are confirmed to re-uses certain code from OS4.. and they have also made some improvements to these same components taken from AmigaOS4 ... fortunately they seem to be willing to share them again confirming that these guys are almost sane

@OlafS3

Quote:

This is of course not true, especially with regard to Olaf, who is responsible for communication with AmigaOS 4 beta testers in terms of information about new beta files, as well as for other things.

@Olaf
Quote:

Of course it just an excuse. Whole world live with that Covid for year or more already, and things going on everywhere, with some impact. But the less affected ppls is one who work over computer making software. So i also can't understand wtf.

As for Olaf, mufa say it allright : he involved in os4 pretty much. There were even few beta of roadshow for os4 lately (year ago if i remember right), but that again going to nowhere and nothing released. Olaf also involved to keep working "beta" released for us beta-testers, keeping working email notification and stuff. I.e. he involved quite a lot.

@kas1e

then I was wrong there

Thomas Richter definetely said not being involved or interested in OS4