... when ?

@COBRA and TETSOFT


well i haven't read yet the rest of the comments, i will do so after this post.
i just wanted to reply to both of you concerning the memory protection and the backward compatibility with existing software.

you have to ask yourselves:
does the existing software is worth that much ?
i mean because of that desire to keep compatibility with old software the OS is designed in a certain way that is no toward the future..

to keep that compatibility you're making OS to abide to the old API and by doing so, the OS itself will feel just like it .. like this old api.

i would like to add comment like " like and old cow that can be crashed anytime, with low uptime, less stability etc etc ..

i will refrain to continue making such comparison because that would make many ppl feel bad or insulted, but i do think it's the truth.

now about thoses old software...
what do we have ? dozen of old uneeded crap, and a few great softwares. about that few great software you have to ask yourselves: do the author still suport it ?

if yes, then he could eventualy rewrite some part to make it working under a new OS4 that would support a stronger API with things like memory protection and unicode for exemple.

if not, if the author simply left and will no be supporting his software for amigaos anymore, then why bother ?
i mean you ppl have to start thinking about the future..
new api, new standards .. this isn't 1998 anymore..

i would have understood a bit more such a choice back then, but not theses days .. it's 2007 fellas.. soon 2008..

for what you want to acheive, there's other approach, like sandboxes, emulation, or virtualization..

that compatibility drag you down like a stone.. think about it..

now i read the rest of the comments ..

ok i've read the other comments..

i apologize if i sounded rude or agressive.
what i wanted was ppl to realize os3.x isn't gonna revolutionize the world , it isn't the st graal.. it was very good at a certain time, at a certain point,
but now it need to keep going and evolve to kick asses again ..

i was under the impression many of you were standing from that point of view where os3.x was the greatest mankind achievment and should be set in stone as it is..

what i wanted was a discussion about the future things, about the vision for next steps ..

and indeed rogue said so himself and it was great to hear ..
i hope it won't take another 10years..

cause ibrowse and ami-tradecenter, amirc and few other good apps we had in the good old days simply don't cut it anymore..
(i mean they're not worth designing the entire system around them.
amigaos need to establish itself on nice bases, then apps will be redesigned .. this should go this way .. apps keeping up with the system and not this opposite as it is now, the system trying to keep up teared between trying to support today standard and old apps based on an even older api.)

now, i agree i'm noone, but from my point of view, the only things in amiga world good enough to keep is the look and feel and few other concept from user point of view..

like clear system hierarchy (system arborescence)
like user can customize mostly everything and feel he is the owner of the machine and not the opposite as with other systems around
like compact and fast and responsive system, yet beautiful and efficient ..
well all in all i think that summarize what i like with amiga ..

now what i dislike is :
prone to crash
not up to todays important standards (not every one of them, just the very imortant ones)
and maybe .. it's not opensource .. cause if hyperion fall amiga will fall in oblivion again for xxx years if not forever..
also , on a more personal note, i started programing in java, and feel i'm getting good at it gradualy, too bad i can't do that on amiga either..but well that's again another story..

i think for present time the OS itself need to stand on a stronger bases .. i mean rock stability.

thanks for listening.
and again, sorry about having expressed my feeling with a tad of agressiveness in earlier posts.

@keisangi

again I agree with what you are saying and the more I read it the more I can't immagine OS4 devs haven't thought about that by themselfs...there..must... be some-thing/one impeding them to do so for os4.0...??? (hint)

@keisangi

I have the impression that you think we could act like
Apple. But we can't. The Apple developers can define new
APIs or new CPUs as standard, wait some months or a year
until all important applications were adjusted and use
the new API or CPU, and then simply drop support for
the obsolete API or CPU or application.

Now compare that with OS4. Where are all the PPC versions
of the existing applications? Do you think we can drop
68k compatibility now? The last 68k Amiga was build when?
Its possible to build PPC OS4 applications since when?

Quote:
Throwing in those phrases doesnt help. When his old 68k
application crashes, the user will complain, always, regardless
if it crashed inside OS4 or inside the 68k emulation or
inside a virtual machine or inside a sandbox.

You argue that you dont need old 68k software?
Then dont use it, its as simple as that. But please
stop suggesting OS4 should forbid the users to use it,
this would reduce the potential user base to a few dozends
IMHO. Just have a look at the forums how happy the users
are that the July update allows to run FinalWriter again,
count the number of existing PPC word processors for OS4,
then the number of existing 68k/PPC/x86 word processors
for MacOS...

You claim you would ask for new features but in fact you
are asking to remove old features first, then you wonder
why the developers refuse such suggestions. Please allow
the developers to add new features first before removing
old features, and please allow them to decide themself
whats more important and what should be done next. Thanks.

Oh, and BTW:
Quote:
AmigaOS was always a commercial product, read my public
contract. You want to pay me (and probably some more
developers) and Hyperion (and eventually Amiga Inc) for
every download of the open-sourced code? No? Then please
stop asking the AmigaOS developers for free sources including
new features for free, I already suggested you to ask the
AROS or Linux developers for the OS which can do what you
want, for free, with public source code. When they cant
give it to you you have to write it yourself. Send me
a free copy when you're done.

Oh, you could ask H&P to opensource their additions of
OS3.9 (but not under GPL), that would help the OS4/MOS/AROS
teams a bit. Thanks in advance :)

@keisangi

Your first comment starting this thread was on "Uptime", and your most recent posting still puts "prone to crash" at the top of your dislike list.

It may be a good idea to get your system checked out by a competent professional. My AmigaOne runs 24/7, and it's uptime regularly goes into weeks at a time. The only thing that breaks that up is my occasional "coding weekends", which require regular reboots as I continue to document ways that won't work when writing new code.

Seriously. If my machine were unstable, I would be VERY dissatisfied. I can't be bothered with unreliable equipment.

My workstation at home has two computers side-by-side. One is a micro-AOne, and the other a Windows machine. Based entirely on the "User Experience", the micro is my 24/7 machine, and the windows rig is only started when I'm doing something that can't be done in OS4. I'm also happy to say that reasons to start the windows box are getting less and less.

Now, I understand that the writers of OS4 have a lot less resources available to them that the windows team. Especially considering that, I think it's freaking amazing that they already have exceeded windows on stability and user-friendly operation. They have. I'm sitting in front of it right now.

You are correct that there is more we would like. There are plenty of "wish lists" of what programs users want next. But I think if you want to write a post about what you think is lacking in OS4, choosing to lead with complaints about "Uptime" and "prone to crash" may be saying more about your equipment that it does about OS4.

LyleHaze

@Tetisoft

i see users getting happy about being able to run finalwriter since last OS4 update.. i understand that.
but that's not the point.
my point was, if backward compatibility was achieved through sandboxes , emulation or virtualization,
compatibility would 99% ..well see uae, for example..
a linux machine running uae is having better backward compatibility than os4.

and uae is far from being the only solution.
the original morphos idea for exemple was quite interesting, except that in the process qbox felt into oblivion and abox is the only thing users gets to use..
the concept was interesting, but abox should have become like "classic" on macintosh.. a sandbox you run only when you want to run old software. most of the time native osx is used.

i'm not saying "classic" on mac is perfect.. for instance, i would have liked to see it seemlessly embeded into native osx windows.. not starting the whole macos9 desktop inside macosx. but well i think that approach of sandbox or emulation etc is better.

look at what mac gained .. better stability, less virus, security .. this could be done on amiga too.. the amiga way..

so to come back with answering to your reply, with a sandbox approach users could run 99% of the old sofware and would be even more happy.

@LyleHaze

yes i was thinking someone would appear and tell me that at somepoint.
tell me that my hardware is wrong or my settings or my installation.. cause on that someone's amigaone everything runs rock stable .. this is simply not true.

please look at the reply of developers involved, like rogue, tetisoft, cobra etc.. they don't deny what i'm saying. they say they lack resources and time to improve things.
and they seems to say things will get improved in later release, little by little as time and resources permit.

i have a perfectly functional amigaone (if there's such a thing ;) and my os4 install is just fine.. i know what i'm talking about.. i'm specifying my tone is not agressive to avoid misunderstanding. i say this slowly in a friendly way:
i think it's time to open your eyes about amigaos api.

edit:
i'm saying this about my tone/mood/ the way i'm exppressing myself, cause ppl tend to get confused and think i'm angry or frustrated about the current situation and i'm shouting at them ..
the only part being accurate is: i like to be a bit provocative, i often get better reactions.
but about amiga in fact i'm perfectly detached,
i use linux for everything.. i just happen to have bought that amigaone .. but it's gathering dust atm. since i can't use it for most of my needs:
- browse web
- developing (java)
- no japanese support (i live in japan)

other parts are ok, like watching movies with mplayer or dvplayer, but i can do that on linux, i won't poweron my amigaone just to watch a movie..
irc support improved quite a lot too thanks to jahc..

well i'm waiting for new sdk or some real motivating stuffs to comes out to give a new test run..

so it's gathering dust until it catch my interest again..
that explain why i'm not shouting or being aggressive..
it's a misunderstanding .. or my post lacks smileys maybe ? ;)

@keisangi

Quote:
You want to run 68k applications on OS4 in a sandbox like
using UAE on Linux? Then just do it, AFAIK UAE for OS4
already exists. No need to reinvent the wheel.

You want to run 68k applications on OS4 outside of a
sandbox and embedded into native OS4 windows? Then just
do it, AFAIK Petunia for OS4 already exists. No need
to reinvent the wheel.

IMHO OS4 is already the most stable AmigaOS which did
ever exist, I'm speaking from personal experience here
because I fixed lots of old bugs myself.

When its not stable on your machine its either your
hardware's fault or your own fault. Everytime an application
crashes you have the options to delete it or to send the
GrimReaper crashlog to the author of the application or
the OS4 component which crashed. You seem to prefer the
third possibility, complaining about general stability
without giving anybody a chance to help you (no application
names, no crashlogs, no details, nothing) and demanding
a mysterious "sandbox" which shall help you. For free,
with open source code. You want UAE, just install it.

Oh, and I just noticed you want not only full Unicode
support and full memory protection, but also "security".
Which implies multiuser support. When you really want
all that from AmigaOS then its probably better you use
something else.

The basic concept of AmigaOS has always been "There exists
only one user and he knows what he is doing so the OS
should trust him and all applications he started". Adding
full memory protection and full security and full multiuser
support on top of this concept would IMHO break this concept.
Run Linux on the A1 when you want such a thing, then OS4
is IMHO the wrong OS for you.

@keisangi

Quote:
After some dozends of posts you finally write what
you are really missing. Not full memory protection,
not full security, no sandbox. Fine.

Other OSes come with a web browser. AmigaOS comes without.
Or lets say it different, sometimes it comes with an OEM
version but its not a core part of the OS and the OS
developers dont feel responsible for writing a web browser.
You are a fan of opensource web browsers and want to develop
for OS4? Then forget Java, learn C and help developing AWeb.

You want Java instead? Then port it. IMHO I have the right
to demand that, I've created the first public domain
C compiler for AmigaOS which could completely compile
itself (just because I wanted to learn C), I just did it
instead of complaining, please do the same.

Complaining about bugs is constructive behaviour
(when its a usable bug report).

Complaining about small missing features is also
constructive behaviour (when the requested feature
makes sense and is not too complicated to add).

Complaining about missing applications or large missing
features, repeatedly, is IMHO destructive behaviour
when its known in advance that everybody already knows
whats missing and the following discussion will just
waste time.

Please demand the rock stable AmigaOS which cant be
crashed from the AROS team. Please demand the open source
AmigaOS from H&P or download the AROS sources. Please
demand a better web browser from the IBrowse team or
improve AWeb yourself. Please stop asking for an AmigaOS
which has all features of Linux integrated.
For Java, see above.

You want too much at once, yesterday, for free, even things
which are impossible, you complain when you dont get it,
you even dont accept and dont understand explanations why
something is not possible, please try to get what you want
(when you decided what you want exactly) from the
developers of some other OS which has more (or more talented,
or both) developers, good luck.

@TetiSoft

May be I should not jump into this because I'm not behind keisangi or more exactly the way he's expressing itself.
However about multiuser support I should say i would not be against that. Something that would permit me to have different settings/environment (i.e. : personnal ENVARC:, personnal user-startup such things) the "real user" thing is not needed in first place.
Sometimes ago using OS3.0 and muFS I was able to setup something like this, by the use of multiassigns (for S: ENVARC: etc.) and some startup scripts I managed to have a system which could be used by my two brothers and me each having its own system configuration, without the fear to delete/overwrite someone else things.
That's all what I would like to have: filesystem with user/group rights enabling *some sort of* security and system support for configuration by user (could be easily achieved by adding the a specific HOME: autoassign by user which could contain a C, S, ENV-Archive drawers automatically added respectively to C:, S: and ENV-ARC:).

Nonetheless OS4 is way better than my OS3.9 on my 1200PPC, thank you all.

@TetiSoft


somehow i get the feeling that trying to express myself the nice way doesn't come the fruition..

better be back the provocative way..

so, basicaly you're saying :
memory protection, multiuser,security,unicode and a stable system isn't realistic on amigaos, and my alternative are either:

- to try to implement all the missing stuff myself (i'm basicaly a user of the system .. maybe a potential client)
- or to simply give up on amiga and start using something else cause it's not gonna happen on amigaos..
otherwise it wouldn't be amigaos anymore..

well, the future looks bright on this platform it seems ;)

maybe i should follow your advice.. after all it look wise.
why bother .. no unicode? no browser, no MP, not stable, no security, only outdated softwares ...

sure, amiga remembers me when computing was "fun"
in fact, the fun is probably for the ones watching you using this old gimp..

well have a good day, i come back later to see if thing got a bit better, or if you're all still in the same old sh*t..
man that doesn't look great on your side you sure you don't want to follow your own advice too and giveup amiga ?
cause that looks really painful ;)

@abalaban

Quote:
IMHO there exist two versions of multiuser support,
one where you dont trust the other users and you want
to have full security mechanism which protect you from
both the other users and the outside world, and one
where you trust everybody which is able to touch your mouse
and keyboard.

The last time I checked the advertisements in a computer
magazine, it was impossible to buy a harddisk with less
storage space than about 100GB. So IMHO you dont have
to establish lots of tricky assigns to allow multiple
persons to use the same harddisk and basic software
while keeping some data somehow private. I'd simply
create a separate OS4 boot partition for each user,
the typical harddisk should allow dozends of them,
some partitions for shared data, and when you like
even some encrypted partitions with password protection
for private data. Have a look at
Documentation/FileSystem/fs_plugin_encrypt.doc on the
OS4Final CD. No, didnt test it, I'm the only user here
and my machine trusts me and I'm trusting my family...

@keisangi

Quote:
Read again what I wrote. AmigaOS already has memory
protection, multiuser support (Envoy), it supports
Unicode since 1992 IIRC and here it seems to be stable
enough for my personal needs.

You were asking for FULL memory protection, FULL multiuser
support, FULL security, FULL Unicode support and an
UNCRASHABLE system. And with "FULL" you obviously meant
"Like in Linux". This is unrealistic for every OS.
Such an OS doesnt exist. I suggest you keep using Linux
and ask the Linux developers how to run a broken old 68k
Amiga binary in full memory protection without crashing
either the program or the OS.

Quote:
Be assured that this was not meant as an invitation to
try to do something you cant do. You would waste your time.

Quote:
Yes. Keep using Linux.

When you want to bring the Amiga forward, then think
about some nice feature which could be added to this
and that application or the OS, politely ask for that,
buy some applications and shareware, write some "Well done"
messages to developers etc. This would be constructive
and could eventually help.

What you are doing is to try to tell the AmigaOS developers
that this and that Linux feature is missing and that they
have wasted their time trying to keep backwards compatibility.
Do you think we didnt know that those features were missing?
Do you think we would start to code "sandboxes" and "virtual
machines" because some Linux user is able to write such
a phrase here and he thinks he needs something like that?

Your behaviour is IMHO not constructive. I'm wasting my
time with answering you. Of course it can happen that a
user wants something which a developer can not implement
immediately. But the average user stops demanding something
when he got explained once why its not possible yet.

You are the type of user that keeps demanding something
after he got the fifth explanation, that doesnt understand
the explanations, that even complains about the explanations
as if they were excuses. Why should I try to explain you
something the next time? Why should I even think about
helping you?

Quote:
Anybody who can do it better than me is invited
to do it better. As already written, IMHO there exist
lots of developers which could do it better. But until
now it doesnt look as if we had too much developers,
do you really think it would be a good idea when I'd leave?

@TetiSoft

I'm in the Amiga game waiting for AmigaOS to have stuff like remote access, remote configuration, multi user, isolated memory spaces, resource tracking and other such modern features (All meaning closer to 'full' rather than 'what's possible right now'). That doesn't mean that I want it to be Linux or some other OS. AmigaOS has something unique that the others don't despite it not having modern core level features. It's not the lack of those features that make it 'Amiga'. Transforming/updating AmigaOS into having those features doesn't make it Linux/BSD/OSX/Windows or whatever. It can still be, feel like and act like AmigaOS to the end user. It would simply be more than what it is currently.

I'm looking forward to the day that AmigaOS has all those features, sort of as an OS done right, done the Amiga way. Whether that is 4.0 or 4.9999 doesn't really matter to me as long as it happens some day. I'm hoping that no one involved is saying that it's never going to happen since that would put a really big crack into my interest in the AmigaOS project. "Not right now" or "not until 4.x" would be good enough for me, but 'never' would make me feel quite sad.

@keisangi
Quote:
Well it seems you can't take a hint from your peers and stop with the arrogant and condescending tone so I'm locking your topic. Don't bother starting another one.