AmigaOS future if Amiga Inc. "wins"

I have created this thread after reading ssolie's post where he said that he thinks that Amiga Inc. will "win" during the lawsuit. (I didnt want to ask this off-topic question in the Leaving-thread)

So the question I'd like to discuss and ask you is NOT who will "win" during the lawsuit since this has already been discussed to death.

My question is, if we presume that Amiga Inc. "wins" the lawsuit and Hyperion looses, what do you think will that mean to the future and development of AmigaOS?
What result is most likely? Will they immediately release the hardware they have promised for Summer 2007?
Do they have interest in the further development of the OS?

I know there are many jokes about Amiga Inc, but please try to answer as seriously as you can. What is your most realistic personal prediction?

@Helge

First of all, let me say that I think that this case is going to go for a while---a rather uncomfortably long while. I'm not certain that "2007" hardware will still be a relevant term by then.

If Hyperion and the contracted developers give over the source code in short order, then things can progress the more quickly, otherwise, Amiga will have to start all over from scratch---yet again---and get accused of breaking promises---yet again.

Assuming that those who "lose" the case dig down deep in the long-ignored dark corner of that long-unused room and find that spirit of cooperation that they have so long neglected, things will work out just fine, but if they and their followers keep acting like spoiled temper-tantrum-throwing little children, then we are indeed doomed.

@Billsey

Thanks for your opinion. I also think that the case will go on for a while and I think even with the best outcome, whatever that is, we won't see new hardware with OS4 before mid-2008. Maybe never.

I think if Amiga Inc wins, it is still VERY unsure if the developers hand over the source code. It's external code if I understand that correctly, so it is not binding to transfer it when reading the contract. So if they dont hand it over, then OS4 will look like Swiss cheese! Do you think that Amiga Inc will code everything themselves?
Also it's not clear that Hyperion will hand over the most recent code. Maybe they can say, "hey in 2003 we already completed everything required by the contract, so we only have to hand over the old code!".

What do others think? What will most likely happen if Amiga Inc "wins"?

@Helge

IIRC, more than on ex-employee of Amiga, Inc. have confirmed that the company wanted nothing to do with AmigaOS, and saw the community as a bunch of flakes they could fleece for cash whenever things got tight.

Suddently, Tao are out of business, AmigaDE is more AmigaDEad than ever, and its all "ooh. AmigaOS... of course obviously we wanted to do something with that all along!!11"

I don't think even Amiga themselves know what they will do with AmigaOS. I wouldn't be surprised if they just sold copies of what Hyperion & co have done so far to raise some cash for the next "big vision" before forgetting all about it and never developing it futher or mentioning it ever again.

@xeron

That might be true, I am also not sure about what business they are trying to pursue. Everything they tried has failed, the Kent thing was another embarrasment.
I was never really excited about AmigaDE or AmigaAnywhere in the past, but at least it sounded like a product, although they didn't do much themselves.

Maybe a question linked to my first one is, will you take some consequences when something unfavourable happens (i.e. AI or Hyperion wins, depending on your opinion)? Will you leave the scene, or won't it affect you?

Some people say "I don't care about the companies, my AmigaOne is running, it works, so why should I stop using it?". I can understand this opinion. But there is also the question of motivation. Especially some developers have said that they will stop developing until the future of OS4 is more clear. Also very understandable. For some, the whole lawsuit affects the attitude of producing something. If there are no new users, only very few people will use the software they code, it's much nicer with a flourishing Amiga scene!

Well, I don't know what i'd do if Amiga, Inc. "won". I'd be pretty disgusted.

Until the court case, my sentiment was that I really enjoy developing for OS4, and that no company politics could change that.

The court case has soured that view somewhat.

I can only say this: As long has *hyperion* are still developing OS4, i'll still be developing apps for it.

@Helge

I think the key thing is the communications between Amiga Inc and the Freidens which indicate Amiga Inc would like them to carry on developement of OS4 but for Amiga Inc instead of Hyperion.

We have to think about why Amiga Inc is spending money on lawyers, if they were not interested in using OS4 for anything then why bother trying to wreastle it away from Hyperion?

While I wish the OS4 issue would be settled ammicably I do believe Amiga Incs intentions are good, my only worry is that I don't think the management at Amiga Inc are competant so on that basis I would worry about the future should Amiga Inc win.

@JeffShepherd

Quote:

What planet do you live on, ever heard of EARTH ?

It is nice to wear rise tinted glasses and when possible think the best of your fellow human beings but a company that resorts to suing everyone they have ever dealt with can hardly have "good intentions".

Are you sure it is just coffee in that cup and not something a little bit dodgy?


Bill.


PS. I much prefer your German Shepherd avatar

@Helge

Quote:No, it's not unsure at all. Of course I wont hand over my source code to Amiga Inc., source code of software for which Hyperion only has a non-transferable object code licence. And I don't see any reason why other OS4 developers should give away their sources to Amiga Inc., except for the few parts which are based on AmigaOS 3.1 sources of course, to a company which did nothing but try to kill AmigaOS4 since years.

If Amiga Inc. would be interrested in AmigaOS4 they'd either have to reimplement large parts or try to buy the sources from the owners, instead of lawsuits with which they can only try to stop Hyperion from releasing AmigaOS4, but not get (enough of) the sources to continue AmigaOS4 development themself, not even the rights to distribute the current AmigaOS4 binaries.

@BillE

Quote:

I'm definately on planet earth, that doesn't mean I come from this planet though

If amiga Inc didn't have good intentions they why was Bill mcEwan trying to be so friendly with the Friedens? That atleast is th eimpression I get from emails that have passed between them.

"Are you sure it is just coffee in that cup"

Nope........its tea

@joerg

Quote:

I see your point, but I said "VERY unsure" because I certainly cannot speak for all developers. I understand that you won't hand over your source code, but are you 100% sure of that for other developers?
You don't know how they will behave and how Amiga Inc will behave. Maybe they will offer them money, who knows, and then they will hand over the source code. Don't get me wrong, I don't think this is realistic, but it IS a small possibility. Therefore I said "VERY unsure".
Also about the Friedens. I don't know about their situation and I don't know if Amiga Inc is really interested in OS4, but let's say for a moment that they are, and they offer the Frieden's a lot of money to work for them. Do you really think they will say "no"?
Does it say somewhere that they will always work for Hyperion and never resign from them?

Quote:

Ok, if that would happen, then it would be "byebye OS4" I guess?

@JeffShepherd

Quote:

Some peoples have suggested that it is because they want to polish up their intellectual properties and clean up their affilations in order to sell the whole company.
If you have a lot of binding contracts that are difficult to understand, nobody will be interested to buy the company.

Quote:

But the past shows that their intentions were never good! They haven't done anything good for the community. The Kent thing is one thing, the lawsuits and t-shirt and club memberships other examples.

Let's say there is a company that sells DVD-players and it has a history like Amiga Inc. Would you buy from them and say that they have good intentions? I can't believe it.

@Helge

Quote:

As I said before, I believe the management at Amiga Inc to be incompetent. Even incompetent management can have good intentions.

@JeffShepherd

Quote:

That didn't anwer my question. If a company is completely unreliable, for example the Kent deal or the t-shirts, it usually doesn't matter to customers wether they have good intentions or not. Customers usually avoid these businesses.
The funny thing is, not only Amiga Inc has been unreliable, but also their announced hardware supplier ACK has been very unreliable.
The Amiga name has been in the mud for some time and it's very difficult to clean it. For example, one of the largest IT-website in Sweden has made a news some weeks ago about Amiga and the Kent deal. They said how unreliable they were and that they and ACK only managed to produce vaporware in the past.
Nearly all peoples have laughed about it and have been mocking about Amiga. Some have said that Amiga was great in the past, but that the peoples should finally realise that it's over. What is important though I think is that NONE of the people who read the article will probably ever buy an item from Amiga Inc or ACK because of their reputation.
Who cares about their intentions if they have never been reliable and if customers have to fear that no warranty is being honoured if they buy from them?

I don't think that their intention is to make new hardware with OS4 and I don't think their announcements with ACK are what they really intend to do.

Why? (all IMHO of course, not facts!)

a) They have announced the new hardware when they KNEW that they were filing a lawsuit. Yet, they announced the hardware for late Summer 2007. Even IF the lawsuit would have been decided in their favour quickly, which does not seem realistic when looking at the complexity of the case, they could have never supplied ACK hardware with OS4 in late Summer 2007.

b) Their announcement of new hardware supports their lawsuit. It should tell the lawyer "Hey, we really need OS4, because we want to release this hardware and everything is ready, otherwise a lot of money is lost because of Hyperion!"

c) If they really intended to release something, then they would actively CARE about their reputation AND the reputation of ACK. Both is in the dumbs. The negative attitude towards Amiga Inc and ACK is NOT the communities fault! It's the fault of the unreliability and bad behaviour of these companies.
WE are basically the only ones who might buy their products. They have done NOTHING to enhance the relationship to the communitiy in the past. That tells me, that there is no plan to sell something to us, otherwise they wouldnt be so careless about that.

d) They know very well that the goal of getting all pieces of OS4 together and release it with ACK hardware is unrealistic. It is unrealistic that they will get all the contracted work and ExecSG from the Friedens. They knew this, therefore it wasn't their goal, instead they wanted to do e)

e) After many failed plans and ventures with Amiga Inc, and after the death of AmigaDE due to bancrupcy of TAO, Pentti Kouri decided to sell the whole company. It isn't worth much, but what is their most valuable asset? Exactly, not their products, but their IP and their trademarks. If they can also say that they own an OS (OS4) they are much more valuable as if they say "Well, we have this Amiga trademark, a nice red-white coloured ball and cough cough these great and very advanced wordgames and that solitaire game over there.
The lawsuit is to clean up their attic. Other companies would be very negative about buying them, if there is an unclear situation with their trademarks or with the ownership of OS4.

@Helge

Quote:Why should anyone do that? It wouldn't make any sense. Even throwing the sources into the largest trashcan of abandoned AmigaOS software, sourceforge.net, would make much more sense, that way there would be a tiny chance that someone does something usefull with them, donating them to Amiga Inc. instead would be the equivalent of deleting them.

Quote:Just like they promised to refund the money they owe to thousends of people from the PartyPack and ClubAmiga scams, not paying former employees like Bolton Peck although they were sentenced to pay by a court, the Kent arena sponsoring, etc.?
The OS4 developers might be mad because of still working on AmigaOS4 despite all problems, but we are not that stupid

@Helge

@Helge

Bill McEwan in his endeavors also went bankrupt but worked his way back, why would he stay in the Amiga scene if he thought he could do nothing? If you were in his position would you bother staying if you thought you could do nothing?

Having business plans that fail does not mean your intentions are bad and remember it was under Bill McEwan that hyperion were granted a license to develop OS4, was that because of good intentions or bad intentions?

As I understand it, the t-shirt issue has now (finally) been resolved, I do however stand corrected if this is not the case.

The problem as I see it at Amiga Inc is just incompetence. With the backing of someone with Pentti Kouri's money then a more competant managerial team would have more success.

@joerg

Quote:

Well, I can see two reasons, although they are unrealistic, because I think they are not planning to release OS4 and hardware after they won (see my other post).
Nevertheless, one reason could still be that Amiga Inc or Kouri not only offered, but paid them money for it. The other reason would be that some developers might think that it's better to hand them over than to delete them. If Amiga Inc wins, they probably wont applaud to it, but maybe they think that at least there is a small chance that OS4 will ever be released by Amiga Inc. So their work will be of some use in the future and not for nothing.
I don't think that all developers are like bloodbrothers with Hyperion and will defend them to death. They like OS4 and their intention would be to do everything to make it survive. Deleting their work instead of giving it to Amiga Inc would not help their goal.

Quote:

I think that's a bit harsh, but you are entitled to your opinion of course. However, please respect that not all external OS4 developers might think like you.

Quote:Just like they promised to refund the money they owe to thousends of people from the PartyPack and ClubAmiga scams, not paying former employees like Bolton Peck although they were sentenced to pay by a court, the Kent arena sponsoring, etc.?
The OS4 developers might be mad because of still working on AmigaOS4 despite all problems, but we are not that stupid [/quote]

I know, I know, it's not very realistic, but I think Kouri HAS a lot of money. It only depends if he is willing to spend it or not. Nonody knows if the offer to the Friedens was true and honourable. Do you think a programmer would betray Hyperion by moving to another employer who offers more money or offers them special benefits? I dont think so.
But if you ask me, I wouldnt work for them, because I would fear that they would stop payment quickly. It happened before and there are lawsuits about this.

@JeffShepherd

Quote:

I don't think that McEwen is in the Amiga scene. He is employed by Kouri, but he has nothing to do with the scene. His work maybe involves managing the funds he gets from Kouri and reporting the sales from their gaming portal.

Regarding his personal bancruptcy, I think he stayed with Amiga Inc because he wasn't fired. He can't do much, but maybe his salary is ok? Maybe he doesn't find a find a better job because Amiga Inc ruined his CV? Mind you, many employers "screen" the former companies when a former CEO applies. There is enough dodgy stuffs about Amiga Inc why he might have difficulties finding a better job.

Quote:

Don't you think that someone with experience like Kouri would have already fired the incompetent team of Amiga Inc? Usually it happens very quickly for companies because there isnt much time if you make losses. Some big companies even have exchanged their CEO multiple times in a year!

Of course Kouri would have already fired them !!IF!! his intention was to generate profits with Amiga Inc. and make it to a worldwide leader of multimedia enabling technologies.

There are many companies that don't exist to make profits, but they exist for some other purposes. I will let you fill out the blanks, but a keyword is "taxes".