First, many thanks to all parties involved for bringing OS4 to the classic Amigas
I have some questions regarding this release. I tried to gather information from the various related threads but could not find an answer to following issues:
First, the BPPC SCSI - can somebody please explain why it is not supported? Is it a technical problem? I have understood CSPPC SCSI is supported, so why not BPPC one?
Second, the USB - what controllers are supported? Can we for example use Spider USB cards?
Finally, is OS4 for classics able to use the joystick ports on the mobo? If I want to play games through emulation does the joystick work on those?
"Ain't Got no cash, Ain't got no style, Ladies vomit when I smile, but does Zoidberg worry?"
First, the BPPC SCSI - can somebody please explain why it is not supported? Is it a technical problem? I have understood CSPPC SCSI is supported, so why not BPPC one?
The SCSI chips on both cards are different. For a working driver, you need the information how to access the SCSI chip on the card (which chip register has which address etc), the docs for the chip, knowledge in SCRIPT code (the chip executes a program written in SCRIPT, thats probably a bit more complicated than the average IDE driver), knowledge in SCSI, knowledge in OS4 device driver programming including DMA, an A1200, a BlizzardPPC card, a SCSI card for the BlizzardPPC, some SCSI devices, time and motivation.
There may exist persons which have the knowledge but not the hardware, the typical experienced OS4 developer has an AOne, eventually a CSPPC, but no BPPC with SCSI. Or the motivation may be missing (IDE works, IDEFix works, AFAIK EIDE99 and FastATA work, SCSI is a dead standard nowadays, the future is IDE/PATA/SATA/USB). Or the docs are missing (dont remember if there exists a BPPC SCSI driver source code with a NetBSD-like license, or at least docs about the BPPC card register layout).
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Second, the USB - what controllers are supported? Can we for example use Spider USB cards?
The Highway is supported by the Sirion USB stack. Its also possible to use Poseidon and its Subway driver, I dont know if using Poseidon and its Spider driver would work.
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Finally, is OS4 for classics able to use the joystick ports on the mobo?
It comes with the classic version of gameport.device so it should work, have not tested it for years but when it would not work I'm pretty sure a bug report would have been filed.
Three developers worked on the CSPPC driver, not Stephane. Quote:
If someone got him hardware, would he be willing to do the driver?
Just ask him. Quote:
IMO that driver is quite important for the A1200.. All other options are really slow..
I disagree. The BPPC SCSI board is not as fast as the CSPPC UWSCSI anyway, and IMHO many people are overestimating raw disk speed. In daily usage it doesnt matter that much if your drive reads 2.5 MB/s (IDE PIO0, SCSISpeed just reported that for my A4k IDE drive in OS4) or 5MB/s (IDE PIO something or SCSI non-sync) or 10MB/s (SCSI sync), you need a stopwatch to find out if the machine boots faster or loads application X faster, you dont notice much difference without a stopwatch or a benchmark test. Corrections welcome...
Why do we always standardise on the WORST system ?
IDE not SCSI
VHS not BETA
Winblows not Anything else
USB not FireWire
PCI crappy config not Zorro Autoconfig
I have always been wondering that too. But it's the price not superiority or anything else (IDE, VHS). And world domination (Winblows, USB).
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you dont notice much difference without a stopwatch or a benchmark test
I agree. This is same in many different areas in computing nowadays. I can't understand why people make it big fuss some 1% speed difference because one can't really notice it with bare eyes.
Rock lobster bit me - so I'm here forever X1000 + AmigaOS 4.1 FE "Anyone can build a fast CPU. The trick is to build a fast system." - Seymour Cray
I dont know if using Poseidon and its Spider driver would work.
In the meantime I found that a Spider is a PCI USB EHCI/OHCI card, not a Zorro board, ergo it cant work with OS4 on a classic machine because UHCI/OHCI/EHCI cards require working DMA and there exists no classic PCI board which has working DMA (from PCI to main memory).
Hardly a question anymore, Serial-ATA is winning anyway. IDE was cheaper than SCSI, and the cabling was much easier (especially if you had to cope with wide and narrow equipment).
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VHS not BETA
That one's easy. The porn industry adapted VHS... Good bye beta.
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Winblows not Anything else
In the absence of any serious contender...
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USB not FireWire
Price issues as well.
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PCI crappy config not Zorro Autoconfig
You don't know much about PCI if you think that Zorro is better.
What exactly do you think is better with Zorro?
Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
I REALY dont see SCSI as a "..dead standard nowadays.." !
For the "normal" PC user it is without sense- this is right. But this was alltimes so ....
But i dont think "the normal PC user" buy OS4 or very expansive OS4 HW ........
I have here a good SCSI system on my A4k/060 with Cyberstorm MK-III UW-SCSI controler and i DONT buy a new OS4 machine without good SCSI drivers ! I dont need U160 or U320 or SAS or other more proffesional SCSI solutions .. a full supporting of the always running SCSI chips [UW2-SCSI 2 channel] would enough .. so the NEW system have a little more abdvantage as my 10+ Years old A4k/060 system ..... [UW2-SCSI <> UW-SCSI]
And i pray not the "more speed than IDE [SATA]" song ... But it is true that with SCSI the speed is significant more than with SATA [if you use quality SCSI drives] and i use proffesional backup storage with UW-SCSI DLT Streamers, so SCSI is a MUSST for my Main system ... Foreseen from the long life quality of good SCSI drives ..
I hope my next Main system will be an Amiga ...
[have bought in the past 3 month 2 ? PC {IBM Workstations Intellistations M Pro} to make the tasks that my old A4k is not usable,and for the nice Games that the OS4 user can play {OpenTTD/Wesnoth - and inspired by Rogue NWN, a fantastic Game ;) } and one PC just replaced my second A4k/060 Desktop with Apollo060 with WinUAE on here powerfull Multi CPU, one of them have UW2-SCSI and with this -No SCSI Future on OS4- messages my wish is growing to use the SCSI on the PC more as ATM {use my DLT streamer with him,ATM it is used on tha Amiga} ]
I disagree. The BPPC SCSI board is not as fast as the CSPPC UWSCSI anyway, and IMHO many people are overestimating raw disk speed. In daily usage it doesnt matter that much if your drive reads 2.5 MB/s (IDE PIO0, SCSISpeed just reported that for my A4k IDE drive in OS4) or 5MB/s (IDE PIO something or SCSI non-sync) or 10MB/s (SCSI sync), you need a stopwatch to find out if the machine boots faster or loads application X faster, you dont notice much difference without a stopwatch or a benchmark test. Corrections welcome...
The extra CPU cycles afforded by by DMA enabled SCSI drivers might make the difference when playing back audio or video from hard disk on such low end systems.
I think SCSI support is imortant to people who have invested time and money in their SCSI setup.
I REALY dont see SCSI as a "..dead standard nowadays.." !
For the "normal" PC user it is without sense- this is right. But this was alltimes so ....
Some years ago the advertisements of computer shops in computer magazines still offered SCSI hardware (which was slightly more expensive than IDE hardware). Today you wont find any SCSI equipment in the average advertisement anymore. "Its dead Jim." Yes, I too liked it more than IDE in the past. Rest in peace.
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I have here a good SCSI system on my A4k/060 with Cyberstorm MK-III UW-SCSI controler and i DONT buy a new OS4 machine without good SCSI drivers !
The UW-SCSI on the CSPPC is supported by a PPC native driver in OS4. The BPPC SCSI module and the A3k/A4kT onboard SCSI are not supported.
>I think SCSI support is imortant to people who have >invested time and money in their SCSI setup.
AND for Power user that dont need IDE [SATA IS IDE only on a serial line] and like the proffesional way ..
I dont buy a very expansive OS4 MoBo and then i musst stuck with simple IDE ...
How many frinds anywear he know with broken IDE PC Hard-Drives ? And full loose of his Data .. but on PC is this not a big task .. musst install new Windows anyway from time to time [or re-install a old system it is make to much problems .. so a new HD is a normal thing in the PC World ..]
This was happen to NO SCSI drive i use over the past 15 Years ! And i use parts of Data on my actual HD from good old K2.0 times.. [i think a handfull is from k1.3 times ;) ]
I dont reffering to the CS-PPC-UW/SCSI controler .. I was thinking of a NEW HW with an PCI-66 slot for an good UW2-SCSI controler with the chip that is always supportet on AOne OS4. But it use only 8bit SCSI-1 transfer.
This was the point i refering.
And i have no problem to buy an good server SCSI drive nowdays.. But i have a problem to buy OS4 HW nowdays .... :P And i can buy pro-Back-Up solutions without problems. But he all need SCSI .... All HD producer brings NEW SCSI or SAS drive on the market.. It is right that this expansive drives not for the normal user from interesst ..biu it is the same with OS4.
>I think SCSI support is imortant to people who have >invested time and money in their SCSI setup.
AND for Power user that dont need IDE [SATA IS IDE only on a serial line] and like the proffesional way ..
I dont buy a very expansive OS4 MoBo and then i musst stuck with simple IDE ...
Well, you just confirmed that the BPPC SCSI support is not that much important because the power users with expensive (when it was bought) SCSI equipment dont use an A1200 anyway.
Of course BPPC SCSI support would be nice, but the fact that its missing is IMHO just annoying, not a real showstopper. The remaining classic power users have CSPPC SCSI and that is supported. When you have to replace your existing A1200 SCSI drives with IDE versions, a brand new IDE harddisk plus an ATAPI DVD drive from www.alternate.de are together(!) cheaper than 80 Euro...
I dont reffering to the CS-PPC-UW/SCSI controler .. I was thinking of a NEW HW with an PCI-66 slot for an good UW2-SCSI controler with the chip that is always supportet on AOne OS4. But it use only 8bit SCSI-1 transfer.
This was the point i refering.
Then you didnt make that point very clear in your last posts IMHO.
In theory you can eventually use the existing SCSI driver for the AOne (which IIRC can be found on os4depot.net) with a PCI board for a classic Amiga, but in practice the PCI SCSI cards with the supported chips dont work in the classic PCI boards which dont support 3.3Volt-only PCI cards, only 5Volt PCI cards.
When you want a PCI-66 slot for your classic Amiga, ask a hardware manufacturer. Hyperion and the OS4 developers are software developers. I'm not a hardware expert but would PCI-66 in a classic make any sense? It has to be converted to Zorro which is too slow for it?
TetiSoft wrote: Well, you just confirmed that the BPPC SCSI support is not that much important because the power users with expensive (when it was bought) SCSI equipment dont use an A1200 anyway.
I think that is a common misconception...
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Of course BPPC SCSI support would be nice, but the fact that its missing is IMHO just annoying, not a real showstopper.
Not a showstopper but a real nuisance. For me it means that every time I want to use my SCSI flatbed scanner with ImageFX or use my SCSI hard disks for video recording with VHI Studio, I have to boot into AmigaOS 3.9. I would like to go all OS4, but it seems impossible now.
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The remaining classic power users have CSPPC SCSI and that is supported.
Not true, as this thread shows there are also power users using BPPC SCSI.
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When you have to replace your existing A1200 SCSI drives with IDE versions, a brand new IDE harddisk plus an ATAPI DVD drive from www.alternate.de are together(!) cheaper than 80 Euro...
How about other SCSI devices like flatbed scanners?
"Ain't Got no cash, Ain't got no style, Ladies vomit when I smile, but does Zoidberg worry?"
And sorry, i reffere in no sense to classic HW. [this i think you have missunderstand]
I would a NEW HW with the ability to connect an SCSI card to it and USE it.
I am think the BPPC-SCSI support is coming in the near Future .. and i think too it is importand for this low power PPC boards to save CPU time on all devices. And the BPPC-SCSI device IS less CPU hungry and powerfuller than any existing IDE solution ...
But in the OS4 Dev group [this is my sense] the opinion that SCSI is useless and dont important for OS4 over hand wins.
This is from my view a bad evolution .... Without SCSI on my next Amiga [OS4 based] .. it will no Amiga anymore for me.
And please dont come with "cheap" IDE drives .. If i like cheap . i realy dont buy any OS4 HW !
For the user that connect to here expansive 1000$ Amiga a 80$ IDE drive and is Happy is this no problem ...
But for the user that will connect an likewise expansive server grade U160SCA HD for 400$ to his lovely Amiga, or his 80GB DLT tape-Streamer for 2000$ to backup her partitions with DiavoloBK2000.. ATM it is no solution for this group..
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