Workbench enhancement project

@ShInKurO

We have aslo:

* Yet another desk
* Scalos

@LiveForIt

They aren't open sources, and Yet another desktop is less advanced than Wanderer...

@ShInKurO

I don't really care if they are Open source or not, all I care about if they are useful or not.

@LiveForIt

in this thread we speaks about :

"An open source project, using C/C++, with a license that would let Hyperion use the code in OS4."

So Wanderer is opensource, uses C, it's under APL.

I don't want to rain on anyones parade here, but a lot of what has been discussed here is already undergoing development from within the OS4 team.

It might be better to wait until after the promised update to confirm features to add to your list.

Simon

@Rigo

Yeah, if there was to be such a thing as 'open amiga' then there would have to be some sort of communication done to not duplicate efforts.

Hi,

@ShInKurO

MUI -IS- bloated and nonsens as core GUI system !
Use Wildfire7.15 on 68060@66Mhz and CV64 and you see
HOW slow is a complex MUI-gui system compared to other
solutions !

Will we now go the M$ and Intel way ?
Use bloated SW only we have now more CPU power
to waste ???

For small aplikations i think the easy acces for programmers
to the MUI-GUI system is worth the more system usage.
But for complex programms or as core gui system you see my
statement above.
and -> this was my statement long time before MOS btw...
This have nothing in mind with MOS.

R-TEAM

@ShInKurO

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What's the latest version you have tested (YAD) ?

@thread
I'm keeping the source code of YAD myself at the moment but I can change the "license" at any time, if I want. (The executable is freeware at the moment. But I can change that too, if I want.)

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Optional and minimal, please.

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Printing to a PDF file could be useful.

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At first I thought it was annoying that dockies was always in the main dock. But then I got a bright idea. I desided to reserve main dock for app dockies alone because I can create as many new docks for static icons as I want. Not a problem at all.

Quite big list that abalabans list.

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It's better to wait next update first. (And it's summer here anyway.

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Have you people tested this: FindMore

@R-TEAM

MUI would not be an option anyway. Not because of any war (would people please drop that already) but because it's not the preferred GUI toolkit selected by Hyperion for OS4. If MUI solution was put forth it simply wouldn't be used in the OS so there's no point in using it.

@TSK

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If an effort of this kind is ever going to work then amiga users is going to have to let go of their stubbornness and realize that everyone can't get exactly what they want. If there's 1000 OS4 users then there's 1000 opinions on every issue, there's no way you can find a compromise that fits all of them. Hyperion is the deciding body and the community can serve them with creativity.

If someone wants to research on how to implement multi user into the amigaos model, whether that is a simple envarc swap thingie or a full blow implementation with file and process ownerships then just let them do it. Every insight is of use.

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As for findmore, as far as I can see there's no source available. For an effort like this to be useful then Hyperion needs to be able to use the source without restrictions and without having to negotiate with 500 developers to get anywhere. One of the problems with the OS4 code base is that there are too many owners to different pieces of it. Adding more is not helpful.

And as a side note, an OS where you have to download tons of extra stuff after installing it just to make it usable is not a desirable solution either.

@Chris

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The code is here, it should work and last time I checked it did.

@all

Again, I repeat it here I just translated the post here because one asked for it. It does not mean that I agree with every point.

@LiveForIt

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I don't see your point : what is the advantage to replace Datatypes by Netscape API ? Also this would require programs to implement some unneeded features like streaming data just to satify the API. Rather silly, even worst in Netscape/Ibrowse you have a list of mime-type with the associated plugin to use. With your solution every application would have to choose which plugin to use according to this list (here I suppose you have added a system wide mime-type list as this would be rather stupid to have each application handling its own). Datatypes system is really better : you just tell it wich file you want to open and it works alone to find the right datatype to use to open it. It's just under used that's all.

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On this point I agree... To a certain degree : Petunia is a 68k CPU emulator, it's not it's job to emulate custom chips. However I think it would be great to be able to run program that currently fails only because they are using CIA. CIAgent could have been (at least for a short transition time) integrated in the system.

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Ok I reread the whole thread, in fact it seems there was an error while summarizing : it was a problem with ahirecord that was listed not the ability to record with AHI (the latter *is* functionnal, that's only the first that does not seems to work but this has nothing to do with the OS).

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I disagree, I am the one that listed this point and IPv6 *is* actually spreading right now. As an example yesterday was the dead line for American administration to switch to IPv6... IPv6 is the future, we should not stay behind already from the start !!

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Yes of course, nobody should force you to create multiple users if you don't require them. Again I'm the one that listed that point, all I want is something similar to what offered MuFS at its time, that was enough for me : it's time for Amiga File systems to use the group/other permission fields that DOS offers since ages.

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Again I listed this point (what do you have with my propositions ) i don't see the relation between memory protection and stable GDB. GDB used to work reliably under update 3, crash log recovering is not enough unless you are coding in PPC ASM and can identify that r17 is in fact you uninitialized variable 'dummy'.

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Guess it : i listed this point I'm not near my A1 right now but IIRC to reproduce it :
open a window with several icons, be sure they all fit in the window, scrollbars should be full. Now take an icon move it until it's half outside the window (for example to the right side), scrollbar should show there is something more on the right (i.e. the scrollbar isn't full and is centered to the left), now use the scrollbar to see the icon you took out (i.e. click on the scrollbar and move it to the right). All is fine : you can fully see your icon and the scrollbar indicate there is something more on the left. Now move again your icon to the left (in order to place it near the other icons, best is to try to place it almost in its previous place), scrollbars indicate there is something to the left, that's fine and right. Now take the scrollbar and move it to the left in order to fully see all icons... Now that's not fine : the scrollbar still pretend there is something on the right, which is false. The only solution to reset correctly the window is to resize it a bit. This is true since the first version of OS4 and still is true with OS4Final.

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I too have no special problem with Find, except what Hans is saying : when using the menu to search a specific drawer, you have to deselect every volumes in the system.

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I agree, I just miss the possibility to use mouse wheel in amigaguides that's all.

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AmiUpdate lets you all the control you want. I would welcome a mode where AmiUpdate propose me to *install* (not only update) new softwares that I still don't have.

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Yes agree.

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No that's not you have to use third patry softwares to use multimedia keys, and for joypads as I'm using an A1 I still don't have AmigaInput back in the system...

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Yes but this does not work great : try to use some chars >128 in names of the files on your USB stick you might have some surprise accesing them on any computer that's not Amiga...

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That's the whole point of this concept (I proposed it) : write a generic handler capable of using plugin, and them fully document the API... IMHO Samba is required (at least not Samba but NetBIOS support, however I doubt anyone will try to reimplement the whole thing from scratch, it's too big, that's why we are speaking about Samba)

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I agree, task killing is a bit risky until we have full memory protection (this will induce major changes everywhere in the OS, Intuition included).

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As Hans pointed it : it's the hability to create a PDF from every application able to print. This could be very useful.

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What ? OMG !! Links are for smart people that don't want to fill their HD with multiple versions of the same file over and over again, and want to avoid assles of updating troubles.... but I don't know what this means here, maybe the ability to create links with a GUI in the WB ?

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I agree, why copy what other does when we already have screens. All we miss is the ability to easily switch a window from a screen to another.

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Of course this should be deactivable, think about the NetworkHandler we previously spoke of... A "view as thumbnail" option would be great.

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We already have third party apps to do that I don't think this is required in an OS... At least not on a high priority.

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Transparency is on less priority, however, possibility to choose which dock will get app dockies (i.e. dockies dynamically created by applications) would be nice.

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That the whole purpose of this point (which crosses with the previous) : if you have a dedicated dock where dockies appears you don't have any problem with moving icons. As Hans told I created two docks (and some subdocks, but that's not the subject), the first is dedicated to app dockies, the second is reserved to static icons.

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I think this is a matter of taste, maybe you are used to MacOS. I for myself never think to use the AppTool menu of the WB. Maybe this could be dealt by an option in the OS : Iconify as icon or docky or menu ?

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Yes I agree : AISS applications spend ages to launch but the problem is not AISS itself it's the way applications loads the images. That's why I proposed to have AISS integrated in the system and a cache system, this way further load of the same image will be faster.

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Yes you are right, and I also think we should try to use full features of the one we already support.

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This point was about hardware, so unless I'm missleading MiniGL is only soft rendered, ther is no hardware acceleration, this point was about that.
DVI is coming that's great because it will be difficult to still find VGA connectors in a near future. Overlay is not supported in every AT chip.

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I think this can be a plus, bluetooth is coming everywhere here... Maybe not at top priority but not at bottom too.

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You are right, maybe not the job of OS devs... At least not at first.

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USB2 is important sure, more ? I don't know : it depends on what you are aiming.

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I'm using (or rather I was using) IDE ZIP in order to make rotating backups. It's really unfortunate to have written a IDE ZIP driver and see that somewhere there is a problem that make the media appear write protected when in fact it's not...

@ShInKurO

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Maybe because they are both based upon MUI and you can't base your whole OS GUI on something you don't control completely. To be cleared until now we *only* have MUI 3.9 cause Stefan Stuntz did not give his okay for the OS4 port of MUI4, we are tied to his good will, that's not acceptable for a commercial OS.
I can see you telling me that Zune *is* open source, yes, but it's also not fully compatible with MUI and apparently MUI application writers should write some tricks to make it work as MUI.... So that's not an option either...

@origin

I miss the "I don't know" option, because it would be difficult to implement some functionnalities (like lister mode for example) without inside insight of the WB code. However why not having some selected devs with access to latest SDK and to instructions on how to implement things required by the OS4 devs. open source is great but without a clear direction and some strict rules in no time you'll end up with an OS going in multiple opposite directions (think about WB components using MUI, some using Reation, some using Feelin...). I think a coordinated team of outside devs can help if work is well defined and small enough for occasionnal spare devs to reach the goal... Open source is not necessarly the answer, however a dedicated repository where every of this selected devs keep their sources is necessary in case one gives up, the effort is not completely lost.

@abalaban

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???

It's the other way round. MiniGL has no software rendering, only HW based rendering via Warp3D. Yes MiniGL 2.0 is coming, but we really need a full MESA port to be truly up-to-date.

Unfortunately the full MESA port has to be done by OS 4 devs because access to the OS internals is required (actually, replacing the graphics system internals is required).

Hans

@Hans

Oops okay, I thought that MinIGL did not took advantage (because Warp3D does not) of 3D acceleration (or more exactly not fully).

@abalaban

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Ok, it does not do hardware transformation and lighting for example, but texture-mapping etc. is done by Warp3D. It'll do for now.

Hans

@abalaban

You'd definitely need some guidelines, such as what GUI toolkit to use and how to use them.

But since no devs are interested I've dropped the ball on this anyway. I just wanted to see if there's any interest for such an effort. So everyone who dislikes the idea can relax and put a smile on their faces, everything is back to normal.

@orgin

No you did not get it I'm not against it : I even find it a good idea (maybe not in the form of open source though). Some parts of what I listed can be done by external devs if it's well guided by an OS4 devs (for example IconEdit rework/rewrite, the datatype system can be improved without access to whole system internal (see Reggae), Clock/PlayCD/Blanker module update, etc.) maybe some NDA might need to be signed I don't know. On the other hand others need to have access to system internals (for example adding tabs to the shell console, IPv6, lister mode into the WB, etc.)
But what also be noted is that the small amount of devs working for OS4 that are not OS4 devs might already have very small amount of spare time and might fear to enter something too big for them...

Cooperation with Hyperion to help further developping OS4 is a good idea however we need up to date SDK for that and also good support/guidelines by OS4 devs.

@Hans

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One thing that must happen in AmigaOS is that file system writing becomes MUCH easier than it is now. Right now, you need to duplicate a lot of code and need to be very careful with what you are doing in order to make things work. That is something high on the To-Do-List

@Hans
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Deselect all Vvolumes that should not be searched by default and save the settings (Amiga+S, or Pulldownmenu).

The only problem I have with Find is that it does crash from time to time.