I didn't like how it made joerg look that is all whether it was intentional or not. That is why I explain to use some tact. The coders of today probably have very hard skins because they would have tossed it all out the window by now if they hadn't.
In the manner you react only suggests you have some belief that you have every right to talk in whatever manner you wish too, then I certainly do as well.
It wasn't personal it was just what I think.
Alot of forums today need more control (dictatorship if you like, I really don't care) some forums don't even deserve to have the Amiga flag blowing in the breeze above them.
i.e instead of relaying a message of obvious unhappiness regarding someones choice of programming paths and in reply to someone else in the thread. Why not talk to joerg directly and raise the question. joerg I am curious about one thing, from what I've gathered elsewhere on the net it would seem that MUI considerations could fasttrack your project. Have you given this any thought?
Not AROS PROVIDES for it's user base so much more quickly than YOU! think about it moron!
I'm just blunt and to the point. Some people don't like that either. But relax, this isn't a war samo79
~Yes I am a Kiwi, No, I did not appear as an extra in 'Lord of the Rings'~ 1x AmigaOne X5000 2.0GHz 2gM RadeonR9280X AOS4.x 3x AmigaOne X1000 1.8GHz 2gM RadeonHD7970 AOS4.x
I didn't like how it made joerg look that is all whether it was intentional or not. That is why I explain to use some tact.
Again, I just ask some questions, where can I ask a question ? Amigans.net seems to me an Amiga forum, forums serve to speach.
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The coders of today probably have very hard skins because they would have tossed it all out the window by now if they hadn't.
I agree with that and I know very well how is the Amiga situation today, but you can't cancel all the different point of view in a discussion just because it isn't completely filled to the choice of the actual developers.
I will say 1000+ thanks to all developers for all they hard work
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Alot of forums today need more control (dictatorship if you like, I really don't care) some forums don't even deserve to have the Amiga flag blowing in the breeze above them.
Just because there was a lot of trolls out there that doesn't means that all amigans with different ideas are troll or similar, about the "more control" things that you say, i say: NO thanks! I hate all type of fascism, and I can speak about it with experience, because today in my country there are a form of government like that, so please give democracy almost on our hobby
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I'm just blunt and to the point. Some people don't like that either. But relax, this isn't a war samo79
Yes surely, I don't like any war, there aren't any serious problem here, peace
samo79 wrote: Again, I just ask some questions, where can I ask a question ? Amigans.net seems to me an Amiga forum, forums serve to speach.
Of course, it was just the expression it presented, it wasn't really asked as you'd expect a question to be conveyed even if it gets the point across. Heavens, perhaps I was more touchy than I should have been. But it is good to revisit and rethink on occassion in anycase.
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Sorry for the OT
I must confess I hate hijacking threads as well, at least it was over the author that we appreciate, partially on topic?
not a worry here samo79 you indeed seem a sensible individual I apologise for not giving you a better benefit of the doubt, and here I am having dellusions of grandurer i.e if I was a moderator
~Yes I am a Kiwi, No, I did not appear as an extra in 'Lord of the Rings'~ 1x AmigaOne X5000 2.0GHz 2gM RadeonR9280X AOS4.x 3x AmigaOne X1000 1.8GHz 2gM RadeonHD7970 AOS4.x
if you want to do it correctly for complex GUIs using MUI is much more work than any other AmigaOS GUI system.
In fact there are so many OS3/OS4 programs which uses Reaction and have a complex GUI... what programs???
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MorphOS includes a full version of MUI, and the AROS Zune clone of MUI isn't a limited demo version either, but AmigaOS 4.x only includes a demo version of MUI (or maybe it's an OEM version, but with nearly the same limits as the AmigaOS 3.x demo versions of MUI).
This is a totally choose of OS4 team, you could use a port Zune and improve it if you want a full MUI distro... in any case MUI OEM on OS4.x follows GUI style of Reaction, It's not a demo version... any OS4 dev could make Zune better than MUI3.9 instead to lose his time on Reaction...
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MUI itself, without using any 3rd party classes, is much worse and has much less features than the AmigaOS BOOPSI classes. MUI just has much more 3rd party classes, and there is next to no MUI software which works without any of them.
The only Notify MUI system (MUIC_Notify) is enough to choose MUI instead Reaction: much modern, smarter and following OOP paradigm...then Reaction... all classes are child of it and you can have complex notifications wherever you want without any complex work...
Into MUI philosophy user is at the center of everything, he can change everything from saving position of windows (respecting Amiga Interface Style Guide :"if the user moves or resizes a window during a session and later closes the window, your application should remember those settings and use them"), to each gadget aspect, and this can be done for each application (suggested even by Intuition Reference Manual). MUI itself has inspired many modern GUI systems in other platforms... Yes, your OWB port doesn't save window position when it is closed, and this is boring ;)
To have 3rd party classes is an advantage, not the opposite. You can choose to use a solution instead of another one...without to have a choose you have to write from scratch all things... Even Reaction, when was ClassAct had 3rd party classes, few in comparison to MUI ones, and after they were integrated to Reaction. to have a choose in 3rd party classes avoid to reinvent the wheel each time...
If it was so difficult to use MUI for complex GUI I'd like to know why all complex Amiga programs which are used on AmigaOS are written in MUI and not using ClassAct/Reaction: Yam, SimpleMail, Newscoaster, WookieChat, AmIRC, Contact Manager, NewsRog, Voyager, IBrowse, AmiTradeCenter, ecc... and many of them are used even on OS4... We can say that 90% of Amiga applications updated are written with MUI.
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If I would have had too use the MUI crap instead of ReAction there wouldn't have been any AmigaOS 4.x port of OWB with GUI at all, at least not from me.
So you have choosen Reaction because you like Reaction, not because Reaction in better, it's simple. You have to choose Reaction because was simpler for you, not because it's simpler in general. You could have a dynamic tab class (clicktab.gadget) ready to use, instead of MUIC_Register which can't permitt to add dinamically tabs. On MUI4 there is a new class called MUIC_Title to have dynamic tabs. On AROS OWB port uses a dynamic tab class written from scratch (it will be an external class, and so it will be ported on OS3 and OS4 as well). Ok, no prob, you tell us you have few spare time, and I understand it's simpler to use a ready to use class instead to write from scratch a new one. However I'm just curious to see if you will implement other GUI part using MDI paradigm instead to get to window pollution of screen: I don't believe Reaction give you enough support from this POV. Another thing to should be noticed is with choose of use a ready to use class has obliged you to remove tabs from OS4.0 version of OWB, so I expect that even many other GUI related things will not be available to OS4.0 users if there will not be a Reaction OS4.0 update (and to make a comparison: on MorphOS all users from 1.4 to 2.x will use GUI related features of their OWB port...). If OWB AROS port will arrive on AmigaOS all users, from OS3.9 to 4.x, will can use all GUI related features... This is another aspect to bear in mind... I will happy to be denied about MDI, but I just see a bookmark into a separate window...
It's useless to tell to user who doesn't know very well of MUI and Reaction programming some your opinions like a general true thesis, because he can't know all vision of (Amiga) programming. It would be only a part politican discussion, as it is in fact.
Would it be possible to include an "About..." item in the Project menu? So that we can see which version is currently installed?
At the moment new versions arrive so quickly that I can't remember which version I have installed !
Why would you bother to know which version is installed ? We have AmiUpdate that will take care of updating it accordingly
@all
Why in this community have we such a propensity to fight each other on any subject ? I just want to to remember one point : Reaction is the official AmigaOS GUI since OS 3.5 (it's about 10 years now!!) it is logical OS 4 followed this rule final point.
This is a totally choose of OS4 team, you could use a port Zune and improve it if you want a full MUI distro... in any case MUI OEM on OS4.x follows GUI style of Reaction, It's not a demo version... any OS4 dev could make Zune better than MUI3.9 instead to lose his time on Reaction...
One thing I always disliked about MUI and which is the reason why I won't use it is that it is totally unpredictable how things look on another machine. Its over-configurability is a severe handicap. I once wrote a program with it, gave it to someone else and he complained that the GUI looked crap. And yes, it did. You can change all sorts of aspects, whether they make sense or not. People might think that this is "good" and "powerful", I think it's a severe flaw and that it makes writing programs way too complex because you have to be able to cope with anybody's weird configuration.
I am not a fan of Reaction either, and I have discovered its shortcomings as well (especially when it comes to dynamic GUI creation), but for most purposes it is way better suited than MUI. The only reason I thin that people like MUI is that it looks fancy if you configured it, but the version chaos with external classes makes it overly complicated.
Usually, when I criticize MUI I get flames from all over the place, claiming that I hate it without reason (I don't hate it, I just dislike it, and I have my reasons), claiming that I only hate it because it is used by MorphOS (again, I don't hate it and I give a flying excrement about what MorphOS uses), and all kind of other ridiculous stuff.. So I am curious what it is this time.
Seriously, if you do want to contact me write me a mail. You're more likely to get a reply then.
If it was so difficult to use MUI for complex GUI I'd like to know why all complex Amiga programs which are used on AmigaOS are written in MUI and not using ClassAct/Reaction: Yam, SimpleMail, Newscoaster, WookieChat, AmIRC, Contact Manager, NewsRog, Voyager, IBrowse, AmiTradeCenter, ecc... and many of them are used even on OS4... We can say that 90% of Amiga applications updated are written with MUI.
I agree. Don't forget "Digital Universe" which uses MUI too.
The one weak thing I find about OWB is its interface which is why I still use IBrowse all the time. A browser without MUI somehow seems wrong. If OWB uses MUI it would be my first choice now maybe.
Until Reaction can snapshot windows like MUI does it is for me as a user a poor choice in comparison.
The only problem MUI had was an occasional colour corruption with NList classes under OS4.0 but that has been resolved in OS4.1.
One thing I always disliked about MUI and which is the reason why I won't use it is that it is totally unpredictable how things look on another machine. Its over-configurability is a severe handicap. I once wrote a program with it, gave it to someone else and he complained that the GUI looked crap. And yes, it did. You can change all sorts of aspects, whether they make sense or not. People might think that this is "good" and "powerful", I think it's a severe flaw and that it makes writing programs way too complex because you have to be able to cope with anybody's weird configuration.
MUI leaves free programming style because: 1) it wants remain compatible with old versions of itself; 2) because it's legal to use some attributes on buildin classes instead thought for subclasses (even if in newer mui docs is recommended to not use them in this way);
These things give problems, in fact if you bad use attributes of MUIC_Area (like MUIA_Inner*, MUIA_Fix*, etc) your gui could be bad drawn on another system different by yours. If all MUI 3rd part devs would follow OOP paradigm using subclasses instead to build guis with structured programming these kind of problems would disapperar. In this case if a GUI is bad drawn on a system is because user chooses to personalize it in that (ugly) way. Instead when you use some MUI attributes some users' personalizations don't take setted objects resulting a complete crap gui. In other words : it's always guild of 3rd dev, not of user or MUI :) So why all 3rd part devs don't write their sw in right way? It's because on Amiga (and even on MUI) there is lack of documentation. In particular way, MUI documentation is old and things like MUI builder which gives obsolete code don't help for sure...
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I am not a fan of Reaction either, and I have discovered its shortcomings as well (especially when it comes to dynamic GUI creation), but for most purposes it is way better suited than MUI. The only reason I thin that people like MUI is that it looks fancy if you configured it, but the version chaos with external classes makes it overly complicated.
Chaos with external classes could happen even with Reaction, the only reason because this isn't happens yet is because Reaction/ClassAct was always less widespread than MUI. The real problem is into BOOPSI/Amiga itself, it should be written to load in a own part of memory an external version class by a program, if another program would want another (crap) version it could load it without to remove from memory thats other version class. In this way a program would include their own set of version classes and user is not bored by classes installation. I believe this is possible only on OS4.x (different interfaces?)...obviously here you are more expert than me ;) If I right understand is the same thing which happens on other OSes with external classes of their GUI systems... People like MUI because for many reasons, for example for a 3rd part dev is simple to add d&d feature to its program, gui elements are resizable by user with or without a balance object, to choose if to open a program in a own screen or on workbench, to choose to save user configurations when program is close, etc... show to user as he can do everything with their programs, I know, it's an illusion, but it's even one of rules of good GUI design programming... If I should describe a sensation when I use a MUI GUI and a Reaction GUI I could say:"when use a Reaction GUI all seems hard and cumbersome, like wood, while while I use a MUI GUI seems I use plasticine, I can shape it as I want". This is an empiric concept, but on these concepts are founded and fixed modern UI...
Have you tried Wildfire on 68060/66 with CV64 ? It is slow like hell in comparing with a native 8bit gui like in Imagine.Both use realtime preview. Both have many bottons/menues - but wildfire suck in all MUI aspects - realy Bloatware! Or the same with the GUI for an freeware 3D renderer [POV-Ray i think ..]. Realy - i like the GUI from Wookie or other simple GUI applications, but to nore MUI was never design.
MUI is nice for small/simple GUIs ! Not more. This is the Reason nearly all "new" prg use it - it is eays to make a nice simple GUI with it.
This i have said the past 10years - you are welcome to proof me wrong. And dont come with MUI on MOS[PPC] - if i have enough CPU power even Windows Vista flys .....
Have you tried Wildfire on 68060/66 with CV64 ? It is slow like hell in comparing with a native 8bit gui like in Imagine.Both use realtime preview. Both have many bottons/menues - but wildfire suck in all MUI aspects - realy Bloatware!
It's slow because MUI3.8 is compiled for 68000, not for 020 or 040, 68000! And MUI doesn't patch anything as ClassAct did in past with rootclass (do you remember RAPatch launched into s-s before OS3.5 came with Reaction?). Imagine uses GadTools or worse, build from scratch its gadgets with Intuition/Graphics primitives, so you can't compare anything of similar... nobody in 21th century uses GadTools or build from scratch its gadgets, all devs uses Reaction or MUI, so there is nothing to speak about this, you must forget that kind of programming, you can't see anymore in moderd applications...
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MUI is nice for small/simple GUIs ! Not more. This is the Reason nearly all "new" prg use it - it is eays to make a nice simple GUI with it.
In fact SimpleMail/Yam (I'm sure if you are an amigans you use one of them) or IBrowse are simple programs with simple GUIs :)
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This i have said the past 10years - you are welcome to proof me wrong.
10years ago Amigans said virtual memory and protect memory are useless on the Amiga, what we told 10years ago is not necessary valid in 21th century...
yes - IB/YAM/SimpleMail ALL simple GUIs. Not the same as a simple prg - but the GUI is simple. Dont see more than 1 render window open. Not simultan rendering/bliting in a couple of windows. Only a couple of buttons.And -> the most complex by this 2 prg [IB/YAM - dont know SimpleM.] is the YAM config window -> AND THIS IS slow like hell too on 68060/66 ! It opening takes loooong. And as a side note - i dislike the GUI in IB and Voyager too.On YAM it is O.k.
If you would like to see a complex GUI try wildfire or Imagine. And Imagine runns at the same HW as wildfire.And i realy doubt that a 060 version of MUI make any difference!! And -> Imagine run in 020 compatible mode - so NO 040/060 code is involved in the GUI in any way.
And like the most today amiga users, have updatet the custom 68000 mui system with MANY new libs with 040/060 versions. So the main work is done in optimized libs anyway.
Still MUI is slow and only for simple GUIs nice. [and if you Realy like to see a Ultra-Complex-GUI take Maya on Windows]
There is another major reason against using MUI in AmigaOS 4.x programs everyone seems to ignore: MUI 3.9 is the final version and there wont be any updates of it any more, except for bug fixes and very minor changes. For example the MUI Register.mui doesn't allow to dynamically add/remove tabs - and it never will. The AmigaOS 4.0 version of clicktab.gadget didn't either (at least not without problems yet), but unlike MUI it's still developped and the AmigaOS 4.1 version of it does support it.
Where you see problems I see opportunities MUI can use external classes, and it can use even Reaction classes incapsulated with MUIC_BOOPSI, so this isn't a real problem... And perhaps OS4.1 on Pegasos2 could move current situation with MUI author who hadn't a proper machine in which he could execute OS4.x...
Would it be possible to include an "About..." item in the Project menu? So that we can see which version is currently installed?
At the moment new versions arrive so quickly that I can't remember which version I have installed !
I was pondering about that the other day myself then was looking around in the dir itself with diropus and happened to click on the changelog txt and there it was 3.6 history.
Then I thought cool, Amiupdate found the weird location I had OWB installed.
So for the meantime, that is how to validate the version installed
~Yes I am a Kiwi, No, I did not appear as an extra in 'Lord of the Rings'~ 1x AmigaOne X5000 2.0GHz 2gM RadeonR9280X AOS4.x 3x AmigaOne X1000 1.8GHz 2gM RadeonHD7970 AOS4.x
Strange. I find Reaction quite satisfactory for the Workbench Prefs and simple GUIs but for anything more complex much prefer MUI both as a user and a coder.
MUIs screen handling is so much better, you can position windows where you want them and keep them there without having to rely on tooltypes that seem not to work (eg OWB - I am sick of resizing my window every time I run it), I wish the MUI version of OWB could make it to OS4.
MUI also seems to have far more features than Reaction. Apps using Reaction somehow always seem more 'clunky' than those using MUI.
I wonder why the engine from OWB cannot be integrated into IBrowse ?
IB is far advanced GUI wise but certainly could do with the layout engine and CSS that OWB has.
BillE wrote: (eg OWB - I am sick of resizing my window every time I run it)
People depend on some of the strangest things (I feel) to ensure the everyday pleasure of the use of a particular OS. But hey, his to there own.
It takes me back to the days of BBSs when people though offline readers were brilliant ( please, no pokes about 'Well, if you had 1000 msgs to read a day youd blah blah... ) I was of the opinion it really took the pleasure away from the actual BBS experience and just turned it into an information highway.
Perhaps someone could write a commodity which (not MUI or Reaction based) simply saves the configuration of any window opened on a workbench screen.
Perhaps it needs to be intergrated into OS4.1 itself. Then noone need worry about it
~Yes I am a Kiwi, No, I did not appear as an extra in 'Lord of the Rings'~ 1x AmigaOne X5000 2.0GHz 2gM RadeonR9280X AOS4.x 3x AmigaOne X1000 1.8GHz 2gM RadeonHD7970 AOS4.x
People complaining about MUI making it harder to design complex GUI or being unresponsive when some processing happens just prove they don't have a clue about MUI.
Like shinkuro said, notification is an essential concept in MUI which reaction lacks (or if it exists, it's never used :)).
Then, builtin classes coming with MUI are more than enough to make any descent application. That myth a modern MUI app would require all the latest MCC is just plain wrong. For instance, In my projects, i generally avoid requiring any external class, actually. And for the record, MUI inherits and extends BOOPSI, and it can also use the good old original AmigaOS BOOPSI classes.
Also, when you need to process something in a GUI, you do it asynchronously or in an external thread. Otherwise, be it MUI, Reaction or any other toolkit, it will just block. If you don't know how to use a tool properly, don't blame the tool.
About Reaction, I think the most complex application using it is Aweb, which at least seems to do it partially right by using a class design, unlike most of the other (opensourced) reaction/classact GUIs i can see here and there (which are mostly frontends or very simple apps). For a simple app, it's ok to have a basic design, but as soon as you do something somewhat evolved and meant to be maintained, you adopt a class-based design, or you'll just pull your hairs later.
Anyway, i think the statistics speak for themselves. The most evolved/complex apps almost all use MUI, and there's a reason for this...
That said, i'll agree on one point: if you don't control MUI sources/development, I can understand why you're insisting on using and enhancing Reaction. But it's no valid reason to bash MUI. Better try to achieve what MUI does by extending Reaction (and good luck :)).
he,he- this is only because the lack of good ReAction classes.I dont say you CANT build complex MUI applications with MUI.I say it is slow and bloatware.[not extreme and realy dont like windows ....]
@Fab
and what is the essence of you post ? It is still fact that MUI is slow -> look at wildfire on 68060 systems.I say not it is harder -again-, i have said is is slow. And sorry to prove you wrong, but i remember the good old Amiga days who no serious app was built with MUI [only freeware or shareware apps] and it was big discuse as IB use MUI as GUI, it slowing down the GUI ws the main outcome. Nowdays no seriouse app is still use MUI, because it ISS no serious app on OS4/MOS more ....[sad but true] So only shareare/freeware apps use MUI nowdays. As MUI was createt it was to simplyfi the GUI writing process for freeware progger.Any proffesional software use his own native GUI. Not [or most times] the easy way is the best ...
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