An open discussion on where we go from here

@DaveP and all

Hello guys, I am scratching my head on this but here is my opinion and thoughts on the following sentences and paragraphs -


If you want AmigaOS to be targeted to everywhere then you have to write this thing in a completely platform independent fashion and if things are focused on PPC.
Then you are not going to ever get market in the handheld portable market except for maybe under emulation which is guaranteed to be a market for piracy and $0 revenue proceeds because people don't generally spend money for OSs, apps, ect. when emulated because those who typically use emulation (running AmigaOS 4.x insided - lets say an AmigaOne emulator on Windows 8 or 9 (whatever it be called) then you can be certain that they are too cheap to spend money because they play it for the fun not serious work.

Emulator users typically don't spend money on stuff being ran under emulation. They will spend money for their native OS & HW.

Despite opinions of Amiga Inc. and Bill McEwen, they have the right general principle for an AmigaOS that is portable. They need an OS that is not locked to a CPU and include implementation of AmigaAnywhere or similar API system and the very OS is built on top of that base technology.

Remember an OS is simply a program. Modern computers is no different then the old C64. The hw provides the interrupts that allows for task switching. We can assume that is there in all modern (hw made since 1995). An OS that is portable has to be written on a platform that allows it to be ran and activated at the BIOS (or similar mechanism).

So for hypothetical theory, you write a multi-user, multi-task OS engine and kernal in C/C++ using AmigaAnywhere & perhaps OpenGL API, then in the OS package, you include the API libraries like (AmigaAnywhere, OpenGL, SDL, ect.) to build applications, games,ect.)

If the games are distributed in source code form and compiled (as part of the "Installation" process is compiling the source code) then you got portable software.

Java is portable because it is distributed as source or compiled to a VM byte code system. But Java needs a Run-time player (compiler) to convert byte code to native binary. The draw back is run-time byte code to native binary slows app performance down but with advanced hw is not noticable but taking source and compile to native code as part of installation process using the OS packaged AA/SDL/OpenGL/ect. supporting compiler system would give you a native code that runs at full speed.

I probably haven't covered every aspect but just to highlight the principle idea. With varying hw infrastructure, it would be reasonable to assume that hw will act to varying degree of performance and some degree of variability but an app/game can be built around the principle of portability.

The programmer will have to implement logic to determine the needed "includes" (C/C++ parlance) for the given platforms but there is some limitation to planning and a selective degree of platforms/products to plan for.

You can't really plan for something that is made in the future.

There are many snares and people make hw that has proprietary (unique to how it works and so on) features / functions for obvious reasons on purpose. You can't plan for what currently doesn't exist but only when it does come into existance.

You can only do a limited degree on future planning but can't assume that everyone will follow the rules and make one unified platform because everyone is competing with each other and makes their own unique hw with some standardization but rarely entirely so. They want something unique to market.

Otherwise, everything is a simple toaster and these companies that produce toasters are explosively growing. They often don't even really market them. When that happens, growth has been reached and from that point on, things will be stagnant until someone breaks the rules and diverge to make something new. There is a danger to universal conformity to one universal standard. It leads to a trap of industry/market stagnation.

@DaveP

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Let me offer another possibility. First and foremost let?s get a perfect operating OS4. Frankly I?m disappointed this is 2009 and we don?t have USB 2.0 fully running without issues. The Amiga invented "plug and Play" and we can't get the new version USB working?

Let?s stop adding gizmos and ?new features? to the OS and lets focus and getting it to work flawlessly on PPC, whatever core that comes along.

The great workaround the license, lawsuit and poor management is to refocus our efforts.

Step 1 Debug Os4 as we are stuck with PPC for a while.

Step 2 Offload all new features to the Coprocessor ie The General purpose GPU. For more info on this read the tech paper located here.
No misunderstanding: For those who don?t read the manuals?.this program ties in with this news, http://www.amigans.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=882
?New HIS Radeon 4350 is a PCI one - it is usable.? Ie the GPGPU

Step 3 This program needs a leadership DaveP, programming skills, and can be accomplished using any current HW with PCI slots.


Let's stop playing catch-up and create!

@Troika

Is Troika in a suitably good financial state to help finance such efforts....

..No, I didn't think so.

Simon

@Rigo

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We have no ?contract? or access to source code.

DaveP says it well Quote:

@Troika

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and
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Funny because I could have said :
Frankly I?m disappointed this is 2009 and we don?t have Amy'05 fully running.

Let's stop adding gizmos and ?new features? to the mainboard and lets focus and getting it to the market.

@abalaban

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Don?t think you understand, after many years in the Amiga market its time for me to take a long and well deserved ?holiday?.

@Troika

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What would you do with access to the source code?

@DaveP

There is only one thing that the Amiga needs - money. You can go on and list all the blatantly obvious things that are missing and that would be either "neat to have" to "essential", but it all boils down to the fact that you have to do something that can be financed. All the talk about getting X or Y, be it USB 2.0, OpenGL, or whatever else, is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN unless there is enough money to pay people to do it.

If there is no commercial drive behind a project, it is going to move at glacial speed. People need a motivation, either money or something else equally strong, to stick with a project through those times where it isn't fun anymore, and yeah, there's plenty of times like that.

@Rogue

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Did I even do that? Was that the thrust of my point? No. The thrust of my point was.... that given there is not enough money, investment or resources, how do we help "it" happen whatever "it" is?

In my case it is the Amiga platform. Your mileage may vary.

Quote:

Quite. There is no commercial drive behind OS4. What do you need from us, the users?

@Rogue

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Exactly. Plus, consider the typical Amigan attitude "I'm not going to financially support X unless it has feature Y", and we're facing a perfect no-go situation!

@trixie

You talk about that attitude like it is a bad thing. You see, I don't think it is.

@Rogue

I think you missed the point of this thread. I doubt DaveP was after some general Hyperion bashing here.

Anyway, to continue your somewhat off topic angle, if there's any feasible projects you wouldn't mind offloading to openamiga then just let us know.

@DaveP

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Did I misinterpret you then? I was thinking you were basically advertising a Mac port.

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Says who?

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I'm afraid there is little that users can do, other than to buy the stuff. I don't like it that everybody is in limbo regarding future planes, but unfortunately there is little I can do about that.

If anybody is looking for a project to attempt, there are plenty - OpenOffice and a JDK just to mention two of the most pressing.

@Troika

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Good idea, go ahead.

@Rogue

A MAC port??? Given what I'd said about the Mac mini on page one? Are you joking with me? You must be.

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Presumably your second paragraph bore relation to your first? If not, I completely apologise, glacial speeds would then of course have to have other causes.

@Troika

>Let's stop playing catch-up and create!

Very funny. Where can I buy the products that TROIKA created?

@DaveP
I think Rogue meant that particular features (eg USB2, OpenGL) need a specific financial incentive, not that the whole of AmigaOS needs it. "project" would mean an individual's project to work on, not the whole AOS project.

@yoodoo2

Hopefully he clarifies what was meant. If we are looking at a bounty system that means those that want it, stump up, and that would be attractive to Hyperion that might also stimulate a bit of userbase help.

Part of the problem seems to be effective communication. Hence we get these bits of needless deadlock.

@DaveP

I'm completely lost now. Disregard what I said, in fact, disregard that I said anything at all.

@DaveP

The AmigaOS 4.x development can only proceed at the pace allowed by the resources available to the development team.

I believe this is what the message was.

The most obvious way for people who are interested in seeing a more rapid evolution of AmigaOS 4.x development, would be to buy Hyperion products.

Nonetheless AmigaOS 4.x development is proceeding all the time and very nicely with several very major milestones within reach in Q4 of 2009.

Nonetheless more resources would mean a faster pace of development.