Should they get away with "THIS" (read inside...)

Hi Everyone,

On AW's forum many naysayers from other camps (ok, make that the usual 4 people ) keep on saying things similar to this one:
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S.Solie was asked something similar at Amiwest and he replied that AmigaOS4 is the original source but "evolved" (not some alien completely written from scratch OS).

So aside from camps patriotism what is the truth on the matter, what makes AOS4.1 more "original" Amiga, than the other two, if we take out the brand name?

Experts with technical knowledge on the subject please chime in!

@DAX

No technical background here...but

as a long time Amiga user (switched from C64 to Amiga 500 in 1985) i'd say it's the original "feel" of the OS.
That is, from a subjective POV, if you matured with the OS from 1.x to 4.x it "feels" more original than the other two i know (MOS and AROS).

That's about it for me, i tried the other two, but AmigaOS4 is the most original and "stay to the truth" way of evolution in AmigaOS...i never felt more "at home" ... but of course that's just mho

@Raziel
That is my feeling also.
One could also say that if we analyze AmigaOS evolution time line, well, 4.1 is the most recent product of that time line.
But I am sure it also shares more with 3.1 in technological terms.

I'm sure Rigo or other super experts here can fill us in.

@DAX

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Amiga was hardware + operating system, now days, now days AmigaOS4 runs on any hardware that is supported, the hardware does not need to be named Amiga.

I don't think Amiga Inc. has abandoned the trademark, they might lack the resources to protect the trademark but thats a different story.

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This is wrong, AmigaOS4 was not written from scratch, its based on AmigaOS3.1 + some OS3.5/3,9 sources code, AmigaOS4 is the true Amiga operating systems, AROS and MorphOS are clones based on documents, and possibly discompiled machine code.

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Its wrong to say they are hidden under API's, as an operating system is developed, new API's are added to fix problems or add features, obsolete API's are slowly abandoned by developers.

@DAX

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Its just the usual bollocks from the usual insecure people. Strange really given I read on MorphZone someone pointing out that one never markets a product successfully by badmouthing another, you'd think some might learn from it.

If you want the psychology explained, 150 euros for a license key to run an obscure OS will make you grumpy. 109 euros is bad enough I think we can agree. No wonder AROS is increasing in popularity. ;)

But you will also notice that the same people who go on about "Blind Amiga Followers" and "The Name" followers are also the same people who so desperately insist their OS and hardware are an "Amiga" (oh! it is so in my heart! I truly believe!). Either The Name is important or it isn't. Either the "heritage" of the source code is important or it isn't. You either have cake, or you eat it and need to buy some more. If its not important, STFU and enjoy your OS without bleating about it guys.

But always leave the door open for people to change their mind or expand their thinking. For example Matt Sealey stopped insisting that PowerPC was the future a long time ago and now touts ARM. He even talks a lot of sense about how at some point MorphOS will have to jump onto a different architecture, and the pointlessness of hiding behind the excuse of "integrated" 68k legacy emulation. I absolutely agree with him.

I prefer an OS that advances its abstractions and concepts, and AmigaOS4.x has just barely scratched that itch with its newer API methodology once, and hopefully will continue to make technical innovations no matter how minor. If it does, I'll keep following it. If it doesn't, then might as well return to arcana and install a "free" OS3.1 clone instead of one costing practically the price of a low end motherboard. Or carry on using Ubuntu.

But porting to Power based deadended laptops and MacMinis will keep it alive for a little longer, but that is only a useful tactic if your strategy is to introduce a different technology that isn't stuck. i.e. as a stop gap. I take from the fact that Hyperion and the MorphOS development team want to charge for their offerings that they aren't just doing it for kicks. We can also see SAM as a stop gap in the same way for OS4.x.

But take note, if Hyperion is porting to ARM or x86 or whatever, MorphOS will likely follow and throw out other priorities.

It is, of course, too much to ask that all this talent works together. Old animosities and the active trolls on aw.net and elsewhere keeping wounds open for their own pleasure have seen to that. If you want to be heartened check out morphzone which has a similar population of people who just get on and use what they have got and are unequivocable in their feedback about what doesn't work as amigans.net. Reading morphzone will tell you that there are likely a similar proportion of people there as here who find the mad platform evangelists as embarassing as the rest of us.

A community takes all sorts though, and you'd be well advised to page down over such blatant trolling on any website rather than hit reply. Live and let live, even find amusement in it, but spit feathers? Whats the point of that these days?

@DaveP
As a matter of fact I ignored the quoted text (yes the text in my first post is an actual quote from AW, and is no more than 2 days old at that!) and thought of discussing this here.

But mine is more of a technical gripe, because as far as politics or philosophy well there is basically no doubt nor room for discussion.

You see, it's not that because Windows7 shares little code with Windows 1.0 (which was only an MS-DOS front end) that we should consider it at the same level of a perfectly reproduced "Windows environment" re-created elsewhere.

Yes I can go out of my way and even reproduce a perfect WinXP environment in Linux, it might even be more stable and more "responsive" and YET, that doesn't make it "more windows" than Windows(tm).

Windows7 is the actual new Windows and AmigaOS4.1 is the actual new AmigaOS.

Aside from whether in the future it will be a better proposition than Ubuntu, there are technical reasons (not political or philosophical ones) that makes AmigaOS 4.1 as the next piece in succession, of a continuos evolution timeline.

I would like technical details from the developers (or other AOS experts) about this.

@DAX

I've read over there too that os4 ain't real amigaos. But then windows 7 would not be a real windows and same goes for mac then???? Some over there are just trolling,and they're allowed to it too. Believe it was becuase of all the fighting over there that this site was born.

@Antique

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@DAX

Yep - He's on the money with that comment.

@DaveP

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I don't see 109 euros as much for an hobby. Yes,it's nothing like either windows or mac. But hobbies are expensive. So i'l gladly support hyperion with the money. Well spent in my eyes. What do you get for 109 euros anyway? One saturday with high alcohol intake? It's fun too,but a huge hangover, and maybe a 9months later child support bill? Hehe.

Am i the only one not interested in aros in amigaland???? At this point i don't see this as a replacement. Who knows,maybe sometime in the future.

@Antique

Nope, you're not the only one

@Antique

My comment was not about "you should choose this" but conditions that apply to both MorphOS and AmigaOS compared to a "free" and "open" version.

People have made a big song and dance about MorphOS 2 on the mac-mini for example, but get this, you need to buy a new copy at 150 euros for each mac-mini. Old license keys are non transferable. In effect, the hardware is the dongle.

Problem? No, it is up to the publisher what they charge for their software but they have to accept the consequences:

For many that will be a nasty shock when they do find a Mac-Mini for 200 quid, unpack it, plug it in and THEN do their research on what the OS license sayes.

For some who already have MorphOS it will prevent them upgrading to faster hardware as the OS is non transferable. One individual has already said he would pay 150 Euros for the license key if it was transferable.

For AmigaOS4.1 there is a similar situation. Many haven't upgraded, can't afford to do so but it is a clearer cut block. You can buy an old Pegasos 2 and add AmigaOS4.1, you can buy a SAM and that comes bundled with it. You obviously can't buy a new AmigaONE or any other motherboard and add it but the Pegasos 2 situation is similar to the MorphOS one. I would guess that the price point of AmigaOS4.1 was deliberately placed under that of MorphOS to get MorphOS 1.x users to upgrade to it.

This is just the way things are. The consequences? Well, for people like me I already BOUGHT 4.0, and 4.1. I don't actually have a problem with it per se. But it is all very well diminishing 100+ euros as the price of a night out but its still 100+ euros. For someone like me who is used to taking his Ubuntu hard drive out of a failing motherboard (twice now) and plugging it into a replacement one, or even copying it onto a laptop to take with me, the situation seems awfully intrusive.

If there was a way of licensing the OS to the person to install on ONE computer at a time (and obviously checking that as we know people can't be trusted) then, again, no problem with 100 odd Euros.

The Windows argument doesn't wash. Windows COMES with most PC hardware in OEM format, and even if it doesn't it enables you to run a huge amount of ubiquitous applications. MorphOS? AmigaOS? Not so much.

AROS is the only one that allows relative freedom. It isn't as underdeveloped as some would make out, but then it isn't as advanced as others would claim. The licensing situation, the hardware situation has driven a lot of people to try it out and many have found it just doesn't meet their expectations.

So, the consequence for some or many or lots is not the consequence you and I are examples of, it is that of a drain from the platform.

But then, AmigaOS and it's clones are just not up there with Ubuntu or other free Linux distros in terms of functionality or range of software and development environments to use. Where is the value add to most? There isn't one, bar nostalgia and the ability to reboot really really fast. Whooopie.

You have to actually be USED to the AmigaOS way of doing things to feel the value add at the moment. You have to prefer the environment for subjective reasons. If you buy an Amiga or a clone and use it then the purchase is worthwhile. If you buy it to look at, or say that you have bought it, or to just idle on IRC all day rather than use the Operating System to get tasks done then I question your sanity. If you want to do that, why not use a Linux distro? After all, there is a chance that when you come back to it that it won't be locked up or the USB stack won't have dropped the keyboard (but not the mouse) on your KVM....


Time makes fools of us all. You pays your money and you takes your choice. Or you don't pay your money and you use AROS or UAE or something completely different.

@DaveP
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Well,if they can't upgrade from 4.0 to 4.1 They wouldn't have money to upgrade to windows 7 either,so don't see that arument. As i see upgrades from 4.0 to 4.1,4.2 etc are good improvemets. And they need to earn some money to survive. But as there are crisis over the world its understandable that many have a hard economic time,and have to take other priorities. But buying 4.1 is not more expensive than windows or mac upgrade.

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Freedom in he sense that you have some more hardware to run it on,doesn't make me more eager to test it out. Just that it's free and open source doesn't automaticly better.

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Every os has been there,even the linuxes. You can't run before you learn to walk. I believe they can make amigaos very good if we,the users supports them. BUT i know that amiga won't get as big as it once was,but im happy if the community can sustain itself. Don't have to have world dominans. Seems that people demand too much from the amigaos these days.

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Well,people buy things they don't use that much all the time. But to get the hang of it you should be an x amiga user yes. Or a windows distro?? On the next update things should be improved on the stability. And all os'es have bugs so don't see that as a valied point. Offcourse its not good to have such bugs,but as long as they fix them im fine with tthat. And the os must mature more before letting the outside world to see.

@DaveP
Your reasoning about Linux being ahead is a little ungenerous, we all know why AmigaOS today is a little behind, and we are willing to support it in order to bring it back to shape.

Aros has failed as a replacement OS because when AOS4 was late and there was no HW to run it on, it failed to evolve and become the new de facto standard.

Even MOS birth initially was to allow Amiga-Like OSs not to die with Amiga, but again, while going slightly ahead, it failed to be contemporary and modern enough to really turn outsiders heads. Look at it now, it is about to be reached and surpassed by AmigaOS (I'm thinking about 4.1.1 and most of all the MAP).

And that is the gist of the problem actually: Aros and MOS were supposed to be saviors but what exactly are they today?

Nothing more than hindering competition stealing from Amiga both users and (worst of all) programmers (or at least they try to do that with all their might.

But it doesn't matter anymore, the fact is, AmigaOS did not die, it is yesterday's news that Ainc has just eliminated all reference to AmigaOS on their website, which is the first major sign from them that AmigaOS is firmly in the hands of a single developer now.

Aos is here to stay (and evolve) the others have just failed their mission (there is no dead OS to replace anymore) and now they better diversify or disappear.

@DAX

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It's nice to have faith, but seriously...

MorphOS would be surpassed by a vague announcement, that might not even have anything to do with actual features? Right.

And what exactly in 4.1.1 is surpassing MorphOS by the way? Let's review the features announced for 4.1.1:
- Dynamically scaled icons? Available in ambient since four years.
- USB2 (only OHCI (= low-speed) was announced for 4.1.1)? EHCI (hi-speed) and OHCI are available since MorphOS 2 (or 1.4.5 if we take the older USB2 3rd party driver into account).
- Workbench DOS notifications (AutoupdateWB proper replacement)? Available in Ambient since about five years.
- Shell with tabs, history, scrollbar, completion? Available in MorphOS since six years (and relooked with MUICon in 2006).
- DDC support? Available in MorphOS since MorphOS2.
- Window shadows? Available since MorphOS2.
- Friendly installer? Available since MorphOS2.
- Faster overlay support? Available since MorphOS 1.4.5.
- Contextmenus and ClicktoFront by default? Default in MorphOS since 1.1 or so.

So what's left:
- New theme.
- Notification system. Ok, fine, why not.
- Wbstartup manager (but it's available on OS3.x since a dozen years with WBStartup+ tool)

@DAX

Nothing more than hindering competition stealing from Amiga both users and (worst of all) programmers (or at least they try to do that with all their might.

See it from the other side. It is AmigaOS which steals users. Hyperion just uses the brand, to make users buy less technically advanced system and using it on overpriced hardware. Yes, I know it is an exaggregation, but it shows that telling about "stealing users and programmers" creates only nonsenses. Users and programmers are people with brains and choose system and hardware which suits them better.

@Fab
Hi there, didn't expect to see you here
I was talking about a two step phase, the first is reaching MOS (no hiding AOS has to do this first), the second step (MAP) will be about surpassing it.
We'll see about part 2 in the future...

@Krashan
Forgive the extremisms of a guy just back from the C= days, but no matter which vision we might have, it is undeniable that all the best programmers (that includes Fab ) all working on a single platform would produce better and faster results.
And let's be frank here, without the well known troubles (C= bankruptcy->Escom->Gateway and so on) if everything went smooth sailing, there would be no MOS or AROS today.

@DAX

the second step (MAP) will be about surpassing it.

So I may assume, that Hyperion has shared its mysterious project with you? If it is not the case, how can you be so sure about MorphOS surpassing? Maybe MAP will have nothing to do with AmigaOS 4. What then? And BTW no, 4.1.1 will not even make the distance shorter, as Fab listed above.

without the well known troubles [...], there would be no MOS or AROS today.

I guess so. But you can't change the past, so this argument is void.

@krashan

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Well,thats not true,when these features will be released the dinstanse will be shorter since os4 did not have them before. Closing the gap a little one might say.

Thread locked since it has turned into little more than a penis contest.

Please do not use the amigans website for these type of discussions. If anyone wants to continue this discussion then there's plenty of other websites that would welcome you to do so.