Since normal users & programmers are in the ridiculous situation that there is no official way to report OS4 bugs, it has been suggetsed to me that the best way is to get an OS4 beta tester to be able to reproduce the bug...
...only problem is, I haven't a clue who most of the beta testers are, nor who would be willing to help try reproducing some bug, nor who has a set-up similar to mine. And I suspect that most normal users & programmers are in the same boat.
So this is a request for all OS4 beta testers, who are willing to help reproduce bugs found by others, to announce themselves. Hopefully we can get a good list together. Either that or maybe Hyperion will see the error of their ways and supply an email address or web page where bugs can be reported... (Then OS4 beta testers can follow-up bugs that Hyperion deems important, perhaps by emailing the person/people who reported the bug.)
IMO, the reason why there is no open way for the general users to file bug reports is because most users will not supply sufficient information to make the problem valid, and developers invariably spend their time chasing ghosts.
In order to report bugs against the os, we need firstly, a reproducible case. This means specifying each step in order to recreate the crash/guru, and any files that need to be accessed in order to recreate it..
Without a sufficient test case, bugs are extremely hard to track down, so the more information you can give, the better. This extends as far as what steps were carried out in order to arrive at the crash, which files were in play at the time, and any programs you may have had running in the background.
Basically, the OS team need every bit of information, regardless of how meaningless it might seem to you.
If in doubt, you may forward your expoits, along with crashlogs, to me via email or via PM, and I will will push it onto the relevant lists.
Please bear in mind that this does not automatically mean there will be a fix, or even a solution, and I suggest everyone submitting bugs supply a valid email addresss so that contact may be made if further information is required.
Imho, we (or os4 devel team), can make some kind of support-site where users can report the bugs, but, not like "hey i found a bug !", but just give to users big form , where he must to write (for example)
- os version - crash log - situation in which it happenes (there also some sub-forms for make everything clear).
and so on. Something like bugs.os4depot, but more progressive and better for disallow crappy posts/ghost bugs.
Or, what also can have place: create a subforum somthere, which will be called "report bugs in os4", and everyone can put bugs here, talks about and one of os4developers (or betatester) will be moderator here, and erase crappy posts, ghosti reports and so on.
Imho there is some way to make work more productive, but it's all up for os4dev team of course ..
With ONE big difference - registration must NOT be required! Really, if you don't want to stop users reporting bugs, you must avoid requiring registration. (There are other ways of preventing/detecting spam that should work well enough.)
From other side, if there will be no registration, then, we will have many silly /ghost reports (100%). Because if user not want to register to report bug, then, its not so important for him. And if he found a time to register, and understand what he do, then, os4dev team can expect than that user can write about bugs normally, not like "AAA OOO BUGS !! DUNNO WHERE BUT BUGGGS" :)
But something make me think, that os4developers just not in big interest to read about bugs :) dunno why i have that opinion, but ..
ps. And btw, for example, i know some bugs in os4 right now, but, never say about it, because, before i can say about it, i need crashlog. Which i can't get because os fuly Freezes. And only way for these situations, it's ancient SerialDebugging. What is also a bit annoing. Why not introduce any new way to catching the freezes. To surfive the crash log after "reset" button and so on.. Then it will be much better for all of us to found bugs not only in os4, but in any apps which freeze the os (for example morphos, on my peg2, have that feature, and i can after freeze do reboot, and still catch crash log).
IMO, the reason why there is no open way for the general users to file bug reports is because most users will not supply sufficient information to make the problem valid, and developers invariably spend their time chasing ghosts.
I don't see how that has anything to do with the lack of a formal way of reporting bugs. Indeed, a formal way could ENSURE that sufficient info was provided!
Quote:
In order to report bugs against the os, we need firstly, a reproducible case. This means specifying each step in order to recreate the crash/guru, and any files that need to be accessed in order to recreate it..
One hardly feels like posting detailed bug details onto a forum where you have no assurance that any OS4 dev will see it, and usually no feedback to indicate that it had been seen.
Quote:
If in doubt, you may forward your expoits, along with crashlogs, to me via email or via PM, and I will will push it onto the relevant lists.
So *everyone* with a bug should email/PM you personally? That sounds like a bad idea, and not very scalable...
Basically, all I am asking for is that Hyperion put-up a web page saying "here is how you report OS4 bugs". Maybe it is a forum on Amigans.net (not ideal since it requires registration), maybe it is a web form, maybe it is an email address, maybe it is a list of OS4 beta testers willing to help, etc.
Yeah, i am with you. Its all logical and must. I like part about Hyperion, where will be cool if they will have some remark on their site, where will be write how users can report a bug.
Of course, in any case there will be silly bugs or kind. But its real life.. but filter it , etc. os4devels can try to reproduce, and if nothink, then mark in database "not reproduced".
Imho that all is matter of desires of os4dev team and hyperion.
Because if user not want to register to report bug, then, its not so important for him.
I can say that isn't true for me. It took me *forever* to register on OS4depot.net for bug reporting, because:
1. I *hate* registration, I already have 10s (if not 100s) of username/password combos, it's ridiculous. And no, I won't use the same password, because that's totally insecure. Yes, I do store them in an encrypted database, but I think most people won't even know how to, or be bothered, they will just forget their passwords, and then hate registration process even more than me.
2. I assume that big bugs OWB/etc are found/reported by other people. It's only because OWB *still* hasn't been fixed (after several months), and only because OWB is such a major app for me, that I actually decided to register. And only because there was also another important app I wanted to report bugs on as well.
Only problem is that if everyone assumes a bug has been reported, then maybe no-one reports it....
Quote:
os4dev team can expect than that user can write about bugs normally, not like "AAA OOO BUGS !! DUNNO WHERE BUT BUGGGS" :)
LOL, yes, that *might* be true. But one won't know if it'll happen very often, unless one tries. But if there was a web form you had to fill-out, and someone didn't provide sufficient info, then they could be prevented from submitting the form.
and why not supplying a tool coming with the os delivery to report bugs? i mean we have now a more modern first-time-installer for "novice" users. but why not a tool to report actual bug? smth which semi-automatically adds relevant information about the system and requires to user to enter some specific data? also a saved grimreaper log could be added "automatically". afaik there axists such a tool in aminet ("report plus" as core). smth similar would be great imho. i really would appreciate such a thing.
That seems a good idea. Maybe an option in GR to send a report, that launches that tool and fills in the blanks: kickstart version, some libraries versions, gfx card model, cpu, free memory, maybe exchange can be used to list commodities running in the background, attach a crashlog, and send the report to a "repository".
Also, after a crash, the OS could start with a message like: "Your system has come back from a crash. Would you like to report it?" If it is possible that, of course.
That would imply (as i understand it) that *all* users need to run the debug kernel on start, because otherwise it doesn't provide the exact information in the (at least) stacktrace.
At least i know the stripped version of an exe does not
That would imply (as i understand it) that *all* users need to run the debug kernel on start, because otherwise it doesn't provide the exact information in the (at least) stacktrace.
That is incorrect. All that developers need are the correct offsets and versions of the components to decode a stack trace.
@all Imho, ZeroG are right. Everyone who have legal copy of aos4 - already registered on HP.biz. So, these users pay for OS, these users are legal users. So, why not create a Form, which will be called "report a bug", and every legal user can send a bug-report to HP.biz ? By this way, we will filtered "crappy/boring stuff", and only registered users can report lame bugs (which, can be filtered easyly).
Also there can be some kind of bugs.os4depot , but indeep in HP.biz, so, all users before posting bugs, can read about other bugs from other users, and add some info to current one, or add new.
Imho , that backsupport for legal users are 100% must. Very strange that is still not.
It's always can be like this: 1 time in 1 monts, hyperion just check "bug database", and just try to reproduce/fix all what they will read in the report bugs database.
But again, having a look at that situation with a-eon, when just normal site can't be done so big time, and so on, we can't expect that all what we talk here, will have any result. (that is sad true for small companies of old programmers :) )
@ thread If i put Michael Merkel's idea down as a good one and added 'kas1e''s idea of where to send it. Now that starts to sound like a bug management system.
BTW, '@kas1e', don't use the initials HP to refer to Hyperion. HE might be a better identification reference, if HE doesn't mind !
and why not supplying a tool coming with the os delivery to report bugs? i mean we have now a more modern first-time-installer for "novice" users. but why not a tool to report actual bug? smth which semi-automatically adds relevant information about the system and requires to user to enter some specific data? also a saved grimreaper log could be added "automatically". afaik there axists such a tool in aminet ("report plus" as core). smth similar would be great imho. i really would appreciate such a thing.
thanks and regards...
exactly my thoughts after I read the first lines of this thread! I totally agree with you
As sending in bugs is important so is Registering to the site too. I have also alot of logins at many places but its the only way to know the user is the user and its good so you can change prefs and info about you etc.
I hope something will be done. Keeping the devs and users together. Instead of people asking whats done etc just check the site and there is all info on changes, fixes... blabla :)
@Kicko SourceForge seems to work fine letting users report bugs, without requiring registration...
@all Lots of really good ideas! Some of them sounds like a lot of work for Hyperion (such as maintaining a public list of bugs), so probably scratch those ideas.
Something which is simple & highly automated would probably be best, so I think some kind of web form with required fields. OS4 devs & beta testers can look at the reported bugs *when they feel like it*, find one that takes their fancy, try to reproduce it, if they fail then contact the user for more info, or look for a similar bug report from another user, etc.
There are lots of bugs that good OS4 programmers/users (like kas1e) never report, due to lack of any official way to do it. It would *seriously* benefit OS4 if there was an official way to do it. It might *sound* like it would create more work for them, but IMHO it would just let them prioritise the biggest bugs - they don't *have* fix all the reported bugs.
That all good, but imho many of amiga developers (not only some aos4 os developers, but some of morphos developers too), think that all users are stoopid, and only their (programmer's) majesty is important. In other worlds, many devels works for yourself, for their majesty, and not for users :) That can explain everything ) There is always some kind of "i smarted than that and that user because i do developing of OS", and because of it, mainly, developers does not care about back-way users.
When any developer make something more or less good, but not good enough, then "Star fever" is coming and all other nasty crap ) They sit on the tron, like a crappy kings, and so on )
As i say, we can only talk here , but imho, that all will make no sense (that imho of course, and based on my own expirience).
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