Amiga OS 4.1 Future Development

@kas1e

I'm for miniGL or MESA or OpenGL alone but this step will be reached not tomorow.

Between, fixing Warp3D officially fo AOS3 and 4 will help all to wait.

alain know all problems on Warp3D and I'm sure He will said OK to just add hardware accelerated drivers only on Wazp3D. After just only make AOS3 and AOS4 version.

Matthey also will be pleased to fix 68k HW drivers about bugs and problems.

Alain also will be happy to improve MiniGL or work on Mesa or OpenGL (of course, must ask to him before, It's just my feeling). That allow to add a new developper for the amiga for 3D and help hans for his GFX drivers for graphic cards.

Also, I'm sure one of the SAM for developpers could go for alain, if my explanation could be realised.

@Mrodfr

We can be sure about anything, Rogue just not give sources :)

@kas1e

Read this post from Rogue:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/v ... wmode=flat&order=0#564285

They are well aware of the problems with the 3D performance, and that in order to fix this they'll have to rewrite the Workbench and 2d/3d drivers and to have a full port of MESA. This is a lot of work to be done, and they are now probably working on the bases of this structure (i.e. Workbench and maybe the drivers). Rather than bounties they'd need programmers to help with the work, but right now they don't have the possibility to fund them. So, the only solutions I see now are:

- contact Hyperion and offer your help and knowledge for this task for free (a solution which I guess Hyperion wouldn't be happy to follow), or
- start an unofficial project for a temporary stop-gap solution, without any relation from Hyperion, either for a Gallium port or a revised MiniGL which integrates the 3d driver and doesn't make use of Warp3D, For this a bounty will make sense, too. The thing that should be remembered is that such project will never be official, i.e. never included in OS4, never supported by Hyperion, and that will become useless once the new WB/drivers/MESA will be done and released.


P.S. this is just my opinion, I don't have any connection with Hyperion.

Varthall

@Varthall

For "speedup" on 50% they not need rewrite workbench, or p96 , or anythinkg. They need remove warp3d from minigl (and replace on radeoncp.resource). That say for me Rogue personally in mails, and there is nothing problematic except that Rogue does not have free time to do that. I try to contact with him, and for first he say that will help and give right documentation and alt, but i have no answer from him about week already. That is only about current speedup of current minigl.

Related to Gallium/Mesa, Hanz will works on it when will finish his dirvers in 2d (almost done), but, it again will be only for newwer cards. Any Radeon9250 or kind, will still have the same old realisation of opengl.

In other words i already trying to contact with Rogue, but he not answer anymore.

Yes, we can start to make our minigl-removing-warp3d-from , but, as Rogue say , for making that we need to use radeoncp.resource, on which documentation have only him (and hyperion at all), and for making that, he stilll will need to do changes in radeoncp.resoure. On that moment i recieve no answers from him.

@kas1e

Ok, I didn't know you were already at that step with Rogue. Your idea of the 50% speedup with no modifies to the WB is basically my second point, the stop-gap solution. So, for newer cards Hans will be working on this; IMHO we should first find someone who will want to work for the older cards. If no-one will help, then it would be better that Hans directly talks with Rogue for the matter to speed up things.

Varthall

@Daniel

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What do you think goes in the place of MEmacs?

@Varthall

Why not let alain and matthey have the access of warp3D.

1. Alain allready made wazp3D.
2. Wazp3D work but need just hardware mode supported.
3. He know most of the problems on warp3D and could gain easily some speed on warp3D.

Just let alain add hardware drivers for 68K and AOS4 on wazp3D and made AOS3 and AOS4 version.

thats could maybe just take weeks (for sure a lots of) but not year(s) for removing completely Warp3D on AOS4 and replacing by more powerfull or standard.


We could have a better speed with wazp3D during the first period and move to a system without warp3D later and progressively.


I actually seen lots of porting programs (utility or game) and don't want to see this great fact stopped because finally the work made just give allways slow FPS result.


SAM 667 or 800mhz could have better speed in 3D just with wazp3D with hardare mode supported, allready, IMHO.

@Mrodfr
Making drivers its very hard part of works (i think more harder than write software realisation, as he already do). Adding drivers for wazp3d for aos3 and aos4 - mean for Alain understand all that p96 crap and understand how write drivers. Its will be not fast 100% too.

But for sure, if Rogue will give sources of warp3d for public, it will be speeduped faster than by Rogue himself :)

@kas1e

I'm just thinking just add the link to use the hardware drivers from Hyperion, on Wazp3D.

The actual drivers Hyperion have made for 68k and AOS4 doesn't need to be modified.

the result is a Wazp3D (more better than warp3D with problems) who use Hyperion HW drivers.

After if someone could improve Hardware drivers, It's the chery on the cake..


This is just to wait after another solution without warp3D.

@Mrodfr
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That will solve only problem with warp3d.library itself (which are on aos4 more or less fine). Our problems its exactly hardware warp3d drivers , and pointing on it will make no sense. Everything will be the same slow as before. What we need (for current speedup) - its or rewrite warp3d drivers at all, or, remove it at all from minigl (what is better).

@Mrodfr

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If you want improved performance, then grafting the Warp3D drivers onto Wazp3D won't help. You would still dealing with an API that doesn't provide hardware accelerated Transformation Clipping and Lighting (TCL), and it would still be using the same drivers. This isn't going to make those drivers magically run faster.

If you're serious about faster performance in older cards, go with Rogue's suggestion. Get the MiniGL source-code, and write an internal driver for Radeon 7000 and/or 9000 series. It will be a major task (e.g., you'd have to rip-out/bypass all Warp3D calls and bypass the TCL code). However, the result would be something faster.

Hans

@Hans

Matthey have already gained 14% speed, on the warp3D 68K, for mediator 68k, by correcting problems on the driver (but not with the original source unfortunately).

This additionnal speed could be added on AOS4 warp3D driver.

BTW, I haven't the knowledge at all for his domain but I know there are lots of possible improvements on warp3D for 68k and AOS4.


For sure, this gain is surely ridiculous compared to the suggestion you have made on your previous post but between, improving warp3D could help, IMHO.

I'm also for the fact, to at the end, just use only MiniGL or another 3D software directly, on AOS4.

@Mrodfr

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Could be, if someone will do the same as Mattey do : disassemble warp3d.library and warp3d drivers on aos4 (and for now it will be PPC assembler, not 68k one), speedup it, and compile them back. For that task need pretty good reverse-engeneric skills, but its huge and hard work for sure. See what Mattey do, its some kind of miracle today (for amiga of course, on linux/win32 reverse-engeneric used offten by crackers, which for amiga we not have for now, because no commercical software in general). Maybe if someone will buy Sam for Mattey, he will do the same for aos4.

But its really funny, that Rogue not give sources of all warp3d drivers for public. It will be way easy and better for anyone in interest to speedup it, if he have no time for it.

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Yes, but you can be 100% sure, that disassemble/changing/compiling back work are very-very hard for even programmers. Its different kind of work and you should know assembler very-very well.

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Everyone say and know about it, want to works on MiniGL ?:)

All of that problems, its because we not have for now anyone in aos4 team, who know the details better than Rogue. On morphos, users have Kiero and BigFoot. Kiero works on TiniGL (like our MiniGL), but it works directly with drivers done by BigFoot (in theory, that drivers its almost warp3d, but on morphos called rave3d). Kiero for example was main coder of MadWizard group, which back in times do many cool warp3d demos for classic amigas (so, he know topic very-very well). Also he do ShowGirls programm for morphos (viewer of images and alt). So, graphics/3d - it's his main work. On aos4 i think warp3d/3d for Rogue, its like something unimportant, without any priority and done just as done. Without trying to speedup or fix anything.

What we have now, its not + or - of aos4 or morphos. It's just because of developer skills and time. Morphos lucky in that way, aos4 for now are not so.

@Hans

excuse me, when and when there will be new graphic system and new video driver, i hope that it will not only for new video card only pci-e based, as i have no intention to give away a good board like the sam mini itx that has an high speed 128bit GPU that nowadays has never been used like it shoud...

And hope that Rogue doesn't mean that when he said to write code for older cards as the older cards have never been used well under amiga os...

@kas1e

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Who says that it's Rogue's to give away? Besides, if maybe getting 14% improvement is all that we're going to get if it were open sourced, and for something that is going to be replaced anyway, then why bother?

Hans

@nubechecorre

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You're excused. I think that I need to remind everyone that I'm not Rogue or Hyperion, and I do NOT speak for either of them.

I am working on drivers for Radeon HD cards, and that's where my interests lie. My goal is to get modern features of modern graphics cards running on Amiga OS 4.x. As such, I personally won't be involved with drivers for older graphics cards. If I even tried to work on both old and new, then nothing would get finished.

However, none of this has anything to do with Hyperion's plans for Amiga OS 4.x. Whether older graphics cards get updated drivers is not my call to make. While I'm personally ready to pull the Radeon 9000 pro out of my machine in favour of newer cards, having updated drivers for older cards is worth having. Just don't expect me to write them.

Hans

@kas1e Quote:
Complaining about waiting one week for a complicated answer + documenttion from Rogue, while he was getting X1000 ready for it's first live public appearance (this weekend) seems a bit.... unreasonable.

Learn patience

@Mrodfr Quote:
This has already been done, and is "just" being debugged.

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How make it better? Seems fast & fully featured to me! Only complaint is that Cairo not fully h/w accelerated, but you don't need to use Cairo.

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We already have AbiWord & Gimp.... (running on AmiCygnix)