68k OS getting close to OS 4.x

Hi!

As we all know, 68k Classics were most loved Amigas.

Some people have them still running, but they are coming close to a hadrware lifetime, as built up to 1994 and are wonder to be working and sold.

Minimg brings some fresh air, with Natami as hope for "die hard 68k people".

I am not the one of them, I just love Amiga made PowerPC, even PowerPC is not anymore the Power CPU, but powerfull enough.

Sio, it was interesting for me to understand that OS 3.x users have continued to update the OS in OS 3.5/OS 3.9 manner making something like OS 3.9BB4 and going even futher ...

Read it
http://lilliput.host-cafe.com/TechDetails.htm
http://lilliput.host-cafe.com/TechDetails2.htm

Its a shame copyright owner of OS 3.x is unknown
(H&P, Cloanto, Hyperion)

How this, lets say "Power 68k OS 3.x" could help Minimig or Natami?

@vox

Nice effort, but it can in no way compete with actively developed OSes.
And the comparison list on the second page is wrong in a few places...
- DOS is more advanced in OS4 than with any OS3 patches.
- OWB 68k isn't superior. The OWB version available for 68k is way behind the OS4 one (or any other one)).
- OS4 doesn't have MUI4.
- Warp3D Nova was never developed (AFAIK).

Many other points could be discussed as well.

@Fab

+1

@vox

Hi vox, all three of my A4000's are working perfectly... :) I hope to use them for many more years

Of course I care for them properly, keep them clean and cool. ;)

@Fab

Yep. Here are two OS3.9 and two OS4.1 systems (one of them with an additional MorphOS2.5 installation, of course...) - and the "nearly OS4" description is funny, but not something real.

While I assume most of the "BoingBag3" package a nice compilation of official and unofficial updates to OS3.9 (I didn't need it, 'cos I already had 95% of it already on my A2000's) I think the "BB4" approach stresses this topic a littlebit to much.

Further I'm no fan of so-called "abandonware" - I'm still not convinced that all of the packaged software is legal.

I really love my A2000's and I givem a hug every day , they can be real productive and creative machines, but they can't really be compared to OS4.1 (or MorphOS2.5) machines - and this is only the OS level, nothin' said about hardware capability...

@Vox
Another thing to consider is the question where to from now? I also have an A2000 with OS3.9BB2 (and several added libs), but I don't see myself doing, modern browsing, modern 3D or...well...modern anything on it.

While I understand those that thought of Amiga as a game console with added keyboard (they never did anything productive with the thing) and cling to their 1200s, I don't understand why marginally upgrading OS3.9 that no matter what, stays obsolete (as stated above) and goes nowhere (ie: no modern "anything" on the horizon).

If you want modern, there are a ton of options but that one IMHO. (ad these options are right here right now).

@DAX
Me too. I have to say that I feel the efforts spent trying to improve AmigaOS 3 would be far more sensibly spent on the latest version of AmigaOS (i.e. OS4). It would be a bit like (*) users improving Windows 98 long after Windows XP has been out... (* = beware of analogies!)

@ChrisH

Same from me about win98 improving. Almost the same, and in the same way make no sense. Better spend that energy on os4/mos/aros, that is something which really in developing, and can give you something modern. For now also we have no problems with hardware for any of that 3 oses.

@ChrisH

Quote:

It's a little bit different, though, in that if you want to keep using your classic machines without a PPC card you're kinda limited.

And for those of us stuck on x86 boxes for now, the alternative is 3.x under UAE or AROS. Personally I use both. Though the stuff I'm playing with under 3.x is stuff I hope to make portable to AROS and OS4 too.

@thread

The NatAmi team has said that they will ship their system with AmiKit. This includes a distribution of AfaOS which is AmigaOS 3.9 with large tracts of AROS code added throughout. They are not going to lobby for an AOS 4.x port especially since its memory system requires an MMU thus making it unsupportable on the 68050 softcore. Even if Hyperion WANTED to backport OS 4 to the classics they couldn't do it because too much PowerPC-specific features have been added to that version of the OS.

They are not even geared toward the same markets any more. OS 4 is geared toward the people that dream that Amiga can compete with PC hardware by using it themselves (eg. PCIe graphics cards). OS 3 can run loads of software that a modern PC requires a performance-sucking emulator for. IMO, if I wanted to do anything modern I wouldn't use an Amiga to do it with.

@Samurai_Crow
Retro must die :)

Quote:

same here! we've had this discussion a million times before ..we are all here because we love our classics BUT we also bought OS4.x hardware and software because we love the Amiga and want to use AmigaOS in modern times and the future.
Can you imagine pimping and clinging to a Windows 3.1 machine for 20+ years
LONG LIVE AMIGA

@Samurai_Crow

Quote:

Is that ALL OS4 people ?

@mechanic

Quote:

All but the OS 4 for classics!

@Samurai_Crow Quote:
I think you made that up. I don't think it's *main purpose* is to "compete" with x86, since that's a fools game, but rather it is just to keep us modern enough to be usable in the modern world.

@Fab

Yeah, I know OS4 has quite advanced since basic PPC port, under the hub incl. MUI and AHI went also PPC in higher versions. This is not "abandon OS4 thing", but I am impressed someone is yet improving OS3.

And great some A4000 buzz arround still.

Only usable condition is:

a) 68k software still brings unity. If OS oriented,
can work under UAE kind of emu, on MorphOS, AmigaOS 4

b) Since OS 3 is even more dead then OS4 due to unknown
copyright holder, I understand that Minimig and Natami are left without OS. But even today Natami and Minimig owners would love to see something a bit beyond OS 3.9 (which will not be OS4 ... OS 3.9.5?)

c) I suppose only true OS 3 sucessor is AROS (meaning: OS3 and improved OS3 feel) but he itself is not 68k

d) Its not only PowerPC, OS4 and its hardware use classic PCI, AGP and PCI-E cards (chipset independent compared to classics) and that is basic step forward. Shamefull list of supported HW is quite short, compared to numeber of cards out there.

http://www.acube-systems.biz/compatibility/compatibility_41.php

So, (not) surprisingly AmigaOS4 biggest steps forward became glitches in time

But yes, PowerPC is finaly here in the fullest sense

@Samurai_Crow

Thank you Crow!

So, its AmiKit
http://amikit.amiga.sk/
Without UAE

Hope it will include all the candies
http://amikit.amiga.sk/features.htm

But maybe some of this BB3 stuff can be included,
or is either?

About OS4:
I believe you are too negative.

Yes, the home computers were beaten by ISA and VLB buses, but card concept was always present in all big Amigas, it was just Zorro II/III bus, even in small AMiga trapdoors.

So, you are too much into console/home computer love
- point of AmigaOS 4 was to be independent from custom chips, and that way was already built by AHI, Picasso etc.
in the OS3.

And is a good way ahead.

I love ability to use Radeon and Sound Blaster in Amiga, dont you?

And you remember that through Mediator and similar,
Classic were doing the same, just with VooDo and Envy.

So, that is the point.

It just evolution, and NOW when we are there
I just wish more HW is supported.

When you check two compatibility lists

http://www.acube-systems.biz/compatibility/compatibility_41.php

http://www.intuitionbase.com/comphard.php

You find out that actually we are in between of the old
inherited OS3 drivers and new free world.

Half-world, half life, but life.

Amiga 700Mhz+, GFX Cards 64MB+ ... Big numbers

Just needed good software


And a bit OLD in new:

Now when we are stuck with drivers for just Radeons (find me a VooDo today) gfx maybe some heavy optimization could be done in software to actually use it to the fullest, not like the DirectX.

I mean, those cards are great on paper, but PC experience make it sucks.

Can we turn the tide the other way to that famous
Amiga feeling Classic users keep naging on?

@vox

Quote:

Not quite. The real true successor to OS3 is OS4 as it is an evolution of the original source code. Other "flavours" are merely written to emulate the "look and feel". OS4 will take the original AmigaOS into a new era by adding modern features which many say cannot be done.

Simon

@vox

My OS4 box (which I hardly ever use anyway) is a MicroA1c. It's graphics chips are Radeon 7000 with 32 megs of video RAM. It was a good step up from standard AGA but a good step down from FPGA-based Amiga clones like NatAmi.

My A1200 with Blizzard 1230 accelerator (which I also hardly ever use any more) can run loads more software than OS 4 when you eliminate the low-performance EUAE emulator. I see OS 4 as a supplement to OS 3 rather than a replacement for it, especially when I can get better performance out of my Intel Mac Mini than I can from any currently existing OS 4 model (including the new ones coming out).

I view the retargetable graphics setups as a kludge to buy time until Amiga graphics chips became available again. I have a similar view of PowerPC processors relating to the new 68k softcores like the N68050 in the NatAmi. The AHI drivers are designed around software mixing by the CPU and were (BY DESIGN no less) a temporary kludge until Commodore (or whomever) came up with an official solution.

@Samurai_Crow

What some people seem to forget (or perhaps not grasp at all) is that OS4 was never meant to continue the OS3 line in the same way, it's main aim was to replace it and push the platform forward.

If the maximum amount of compatibility had been retained, it would be impossible to add more modern features to the OS. Something has to break, and in the case of OS4, it's the support for 20 year old software packages which were written in an manner which dug too deep into the system.

Those with classic machines that have software libraries to die for are not really the ultimate targets of AmigaOS 4 and beyond. Personally I cannot see any reason to improve the compatibility in OS4 as I don't see any software that wont run being worth the hassle.

As we move on to multi-core support, more and more backwards compatibilities will break, and good riddance I say.

If I wanted to cling onto OS3, I'd fire up my A4000 again, after 8 years it could probably do with a blowout.

The original compatibility layer was present in the system to give the users and developers a way to run software that may have been required in those days. Luckily, a lot of that software has been recreated for OS4, and can easily be recompiled to account for any subsequent changes in the system.

If I really get nostalgic, I'll fire up UAE to run something, but I've never had need so far in 8 years, I very much doubt I'll start now.

In short, OS4 is not about the past, but about the future. Once the software library is big enough I'm hoping the "compatibility" is simply disabled and we can really get on with moving forward.

Simon