com'on, don't take it personally, I'm sure kolla's comment was not aimed at you!
btw, I share his opinion regarding the different colored "Save requester" in contrast to the "Open requester". I hope it's coming back in some future update.
com'on, don't take it personally, I'm sure kolla's comment was not aimed at you!
I'm sure it wasn't, that's why I don't take it personaly - did it sound like that?
Despite certain good features that surely deserve praise, the ASL requester still remains one of the most ill-designed pieces of GUI of AmigaOS. Kolla is implying that our call for improvement will necessarily make the requesters slow and clumsy to use. My question is: what makes you think that? No one is trying to bring in the Windows requester horror! We just want the system to be on par with today's usability standards, not 1990's.
Don't be so hard on kolla. He may not have directly criticised any of the suggestions, but he does provide some examples of good things about ASL requesters & bad things about other file requesters, so I think it was a decent post overall.
And when he says "blazingly fast no-nonsense requesters", I think one feature he'd HATE to see is thumbnails (and perhaps icons) since those will almost certainly slow it down (see how they impacted Filer).
And when he says "blazingly fast no-nonsense requesters", I think one feature he'd HATE to see is thumbnails (and perhaps icons) since those will almost certainly slow it down
I do agree with the "blazingly fast" part. We surely don't need thumbnails in ASL, and neither we want to turn it into a file manager of some sort, like Windows has it. If there's something I hate about the Windows filerequester, it's the ability to move files around (instead of just selecting them, as a filerequester should do).
I, however, cannot agree with the "no-nonsense" bit because there ARE nonsensical things in ASL. I'm sorry that I'll repeat myself here but it seems worth doing so.
1. Requesters are meant to either display information (info requesters), or require user input (query requesters, filerequesters and the like). When a requester opens, you acknowledge information by pressing a button, you select a choice, you pick up a file/font etc., depending on the type of requester. All you are to do is there, all is clear, no hidden functionality. This is called single level of control and that's how requesters should be designed. ASL breaks this by having functions hidden in the menu.
2. Another reason is that requesters are not program windows so they are not supposed to have menu strips attached to them.
3. Even if we decide to ignore UI design conventions and keep requesters with menus, why is Create Directory in the second (hidden) level of control? It's such a commonly needed function that it should be visible and available right away.
4. The grouping of the buttons at the bottom of the requester makes no sense. You only group gadgets logically, according to function or a particular area of operation. Now what we have here? OK and Cancel (buttons that control the requester) right next to Volumes and Parent (navigation buttons). Surely they should form two separate gadget groups and not one.
As you can see, my grudge is with ASL, and not with kolla.
1. This is not a problem. File requesters, as well as (but to a lesser extent) font and screenmode requesters - ie. the sort of thing ASL handles - are complicated. You do not want to have a button for every single function, and neither do you want to hide functions completely so the user doesn't know they can (for example) delete files. In fact "delete" is one of the things which should be hidden away in a menu to avoid it being clicked accidentally.
2. Irrelevant. Where does this rule come from? If it is in the OS Style Guide then somebody should have told Commodore when they first released ASL twenty years ago.
3. In save requesters, you can just type the directory name into the directory field, and ASL will prompt to ask if you want to create it. You don't actually need to touch the menu option, but it is good to have it there so it is clear you can create directories.
4. I do actually agree with this, but can't see any better way of laying it out than it is currently. Maybe I'm just too used to "OK" "Volumes" "Parent" "Cancel" to see a real issue here.
There's nothing much wrong with ASL, it just needs a few minor tweaks as mentioned in this thread. Bring back the clear identification of save requesters, the ability to add an app-readable "file format" option and a tag to remove the "size" part of the font requester, and I'll be pretty happy I'm easily pleased.
If you use makedir that often, then just learn the hotkey - that is the primary function of the menus anyways, online help for hotkeys
I myself do not use makedir often at all, so I do not want it there as some button I might accidently hit, causing an unwanted popup etc.
@Chris Agree fully, and I had forgotten that if you press / after filename in save requester, it will ask if you want to create it - but that's because I very rarely have any need for creating directories that way.
Of course, why not :) Adding format gadget button not mean removing filtering at all :)
One more think which a bit annoy me in current ASL, its that sometime i can create directoryes by menu which spawns when i press right mouse button, but sometimes that menu just do not have that items. Maybe it because it about load/save differences, but looks a bit strange.
I know all that, I've been an Amigan for 20 years. I don't have a problem remembering hotkeys or finding things in the ASL menu. I know how it all works.
However, as my little test (mentioned earlier) shows, people not familiar with AmigaOS are puzzled by the requesters because they find certain things illogical and/or unintuitive. And ASL is just one example: remember Thom Holwerda's AmigaOS4.1 article on OSnews? Why did this highly experienced computer user think that OS4 didn't want to "let him in"?
You cannot just tell these people, "Learn the OS!"
First, UIs should work in the same way regardless of platform, so as the user feels comfortable with them. A Windows/Mac/Linux user should not fail to save a file using an Amiga filerequester - if they do, something is wrong, and it's not the user. Quirkiness and idiosyncrasies in the UI only contribute to the learning curve - it takes enough time to learn the program functions so spare the user from having to learn the interface as well.
Second, the Internet has changed usability standards tremendously. There has been a steep decline from the traditional "first learn, then use" paradigm, and modern OSes are trying to reflect that. If we are to design an OS aiming at attracting new users, we should take that into account. (Of course if we want to keep the OS to ourselves, we can live happily with what we have.)
One more time agree with you and with every word. Does not matter how "amiiiigaaa" that and that. Matter usability of OS for end users. Because if no new blood will be there, then OS will die. But saying for new blood "learn that and that, because its amiga", you will have only one answer "then put your amiga right in your ass". Because that "amiggiiigaaaa" fanatism, only make sense for some old-almost-die amiga users, who just do not want any progress (even if that progress a bit in the past anyway).
I don't have the time to enter the "phisolophical" part of the discussion, but I'd like to say a couple of quick things: * yes, keep ASL lightweight an stay away from useless eye-candy; * please, please, give me the option to enter directories with a single click as it was in the old times (can't repeat this enough)!
I just had a giggle to myself after reading this thread. Another sign of a healthy revitalised active community. Keep it up lads such debates only serve to improve things (as long as people stay respectful).
saimo wrote: * please, please, give me the option to enter directories with a single click as it was in the old times (can't repeat this enough)!
It was removed for reasons of consistancy. Elsewhere in the OS the procedure is to highlight objects with a single-click, and select them with a double-click. By selecting a directory, to specify you want to enter it. By highlighting it, you specify you want to perform an action on it (like rename or delete).
For this reason, I don't foresee it returning anytime soon.
There have been some valid discussions here though, and it's nice to see what the users think, and to see them discussing things which can ultimately improve the system.
Simon
Comments made in any post are personal opinion, and are in no-way representative of any commercial entity unless specifically stated as such. ---- http://codebench.co.uk
I know all that, I've been an Amigan for 20 years. I don't have a problem remembering hotkeys or finding things in the ASL menu. I know how it all works.
However, as my little test (mentioned earlier) shows, people not familiar with AmigaOS are puzzled by the requesters because they find certain things illogical and/or unintuitive. And ASL is just one example: remember Thom Holwerda's AmigaOS4.1 article on OSnews? Why did this highly experienced computer user think that OS4 didn't want to "let him in"?
You cannot just tell these people, "Learn the OS!"
First, UIs should work in the same way regardless of platform, so as the user feels comfortable with them. A Windows/Mac/Linux user should not fail to save a file using an Amiga filerequester - if they do, something is wrong, and it's not the user. Quirkiness and idiosyncrasies in the UI only contribute to the learning curve - it takes enough time to learn the program functions so spare the user from having to learn the interface as well.
Well, this is true, however I don't think the ASL system is really that complicated - is it just because it has a menu which other platforms don't? I have had to explain where people's files went after they have used the Mac save requester after only using Windows. Why don't Apple use the same requester as Windows? I don't think everything should be made to look the same just because that's what users are used to. Something like the file requester is different on each OS, just like the file structure itself. Look at all the Windows users who are used to calling their drives by letters - that makes no sense whatsoever, but it doesn't seem to matter. People learn very quickly once they get to use it, and it's quite normal for people to call hard drives "C" drives as a result.
Don't get me wrong, however, I don't agree with keeping things needlessly complicated for the sake of it, but just because Windows and other OSes don't have a menu strip doesn't mean it's going to make a user not choose AmigaOS as a platform. If an operator is open to using another platform, there are far bigger issues to deal with than having to remember that there's a menu on a file requester. Like "where's my 'Start' button?" or "Which one is my C: drive?"
I think what Trixie is trying to say is that File requesters - as theur name implies - are requesters and it's very very uncommon and un-obvious to give menus to requesters in GUI paradigms. As a consequence almost no one except Amiga-aware people would find functions hidden there unless you tell them. But on the other hand it's quite the same for the 'F2' to rename a file in Windows Explorer: if no one tells you you won't know it.
And when he says "blazingly fast no-nonsense requesters", I think one feature he'd HATE to see is thumbnails (and perhaps icons) since those will almost certainly slow it down (see how they impacted Filer).
Just to be noted that displaying icons or thumbnails doesn't necessarily have to slow down anything, when done properly. By properly, i mean that it should be done in a low priority thread, running asynchronously to the main requester context once scan is done. That way, you get all files displayed blazingly fast first, and then you add icons and all kind of stuff (optionally, for those who hate icons or thumbnails) in the visible area.
But if icon/thumbnail creation is done synchronously, it will really be catastrophic, of course.
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