Oppressor wrote: I'm not sure if I would want to buy a PS3 just for the sake of OS4. OS4 is unlikely to profit from the PS3, as the PS3 is an extremely controlled and hostile environment, like everything coming from Sony. Access to the more interesting parts of the hardware (besides the Cell) may turn out to be limited, if not nonexistent.
If hyperion were to sign up as PS3 developers, after all they are a games company, do you think they would get access to the hardware reference docs then.
But would this mean that OS4 would have to be published by Sony in the same way games are.
I've decided to buy the PS3 when it comes out here in Europe. But not because it might be able to run Amiga OS4. Of course I'd love to run Amiga OS4 on it, so if it is released I'll buy it immediately, even before I get hands on my PS3 (if possible).
If SAM or some other HW is released for OS4 I'll probably concider to buy that too if it's not too expensive. I think most Amiga fans will... but we are not so many people anymore to make a difference.
I think the amiga community will more or less buy anything to get Amiga Os4 running. But if we want the community to grow I think PS3 is a very good option for other people to remember or become familiar with the Amiga. PS3 will have a huge user base (maybe 10 millions by 2008). If only 1% just tries Amiga OS4 on the PS3... and only 1% of these buys it and joins the Amiga community it will still make a difference. Not for the world maybe, but for us!
So I hope Hyperion/AmigaInc releases a Amiga OS4 trial version for PS3 which anyone can download to the PS3, with an option to buy it!
The more options the better and PS3 is a good option !!!
> If hyperion were to sign up as PS3 developers, after all they are a games company, do you think they would get access to the hardware reference docs then.
I can't speak for the PS3, but signing up as a developer for the Playstation 2 is expensive, and the process of getting a game title out is difficult and full of conformance tests, all on behalf of Sony's quality demands.
> But would this mean that OS4 would have to be published by Sony in the same way games are.
It's not going to happen this way. Hyperion may produce a game title or they may port an OS - either way, the rules to play by are all set by Sony. What I would expect from a PS3 port is that there is no access to Bluray, no direct access to the graphics hardware and no access to PS2 compatibility. The PS3 is a DRM enforcement device, and it stinks.
If os4 had multi-processor support: anything cell-based could be great. Otherwise it's a waste of resources. Another problem was already pointed by Raziel, natural place for PS3 is in near the TV, not in the office. Also, having the option to boot into something other than OS4 thats is for gaming is a con for me. Sorry, I'm a person of 2d shoot'm-ups and old style quests. Not interested in other games. I prefer my A1 fixed. And other hardware released. OS4-dedicated machines are our future, better than to dissolve into Sony crowd. As to exposure to the masses via PS3 --- can't see it happen. Only some ex-amigans will be appealed by this. And how many are they out there? And what's the average age? Imho 40. It's ain't new blood
Jack
"the expression, 'atonal music,' is most unfortunate--it is on a par with calling flying 'the art of not falling,' or swimming 'the art of not drowning.'. A. Schoenberg
My understanding is that the SPE as they are called, can not be used as secondary processor in the same way a normal dual core CPU can, my understanding is that SPE do not have direct access to main memory but are used as generic DMA controllers that can be used for heavy calculations and algorithms, for example you can tell a SPE to do MP3 decoding while an other SPE is doing DivX decoding for example, in other words they are ideal for multi threaded games or maybe multimedia applications, my understanding is that you do not need SMP support to support SPE?s, generally the SPE?s replaces the need for AltiVec unit, the number of physical PSE?s are limited but can be extended by soft SPE?s.
(NutsAboutAmiga)
Basilisk II for AmigaOS4 AmigaInputAnywhere Excalibur and other tools and apps.
Well I definately give a thumbs up on OS 4.0 on PS3 conceptually. It would make me more likely to buy a PS3 and Amiga and Hyperion would be able to ride off the back of a pre-existing mass produced platform then which would be good for gaining new users.
That said I have high hopes that Samantha will be a platform as well.
Linux on the PS3 can already mount the Blu-Ray drive, some people have exploited this feature by illegally dumping Blu-Ray content using their PS3.
Linux is one thing OS4 is another. How much linux stuff is out there than can benefit OS4 but hasn't yet. Just cos come linux guys have done it doesnt mean OS4 will.
Have you thougt about the implications of the commercial game market for OS4. I see there being no need for OS4 titles when you can just boot PS3 ones.
for example you can tell a SPE to do MP3 decoding while an other SPE is doing DivX decoding for example, in other words they are ideal for multi threaded games or maybe multimedia applications, my
Means no "standard" OS4 app will benefit form multiple SPEs? If so, programs should be changed to take advantage of them. And that's not a compiler switch.
Jack
Edited by Jack on 2007/2/28 11:08:06
"the expression, 'atonal music,' is most unfortunate--it is on a par with calling flying 'the art of not falling,' or swimming 'the art of not drowning.'. A. Schoenberg
If os4 had multi-processor support: anything cell-based could be great.
Parallel processing capabilities were stated to become implemented in AmigaOS4.x in the future.
I agree with you, to quote myself from AW (5 July 2005):
Quote:
I understand that games developers may not be too fond of the idea of having to learn new ways to write their software. But according to the article at least they do seem to believe that multithreaded software is the way forward.
Multithreading should not be confused with multitasking. Multithreading is the ability of an operating system to execute different parts of a program, called threads, simultaneously. The programmer must carefully design the program in such a way that all the threads can run at the same time without interfering with each other.
Multithreading is mainly useful in a multi-CPU environment. One OS which has been designed with multithreading in mind is BeOS. The initial BeBox prototypes had two AT&T Hobbit processors and three DSP's, later version came with two PowerPC 603 processors running clocked at 66MHz or 133Mhz.
Today single CPU solutions are dominant, thus multithreading isn't really that much of a benefit. Software developers who mainly write for single processor solutions don't like doing extra (time=money) work to get the most out of multithreading for other platforms. Games consoles usually only run one software title at a time, however a multi-media operating system generally executes many different programs which may all have various different tasks at a time.
AmigaOS4.1 should introduce multi-threading.
Interesting comments from an IBM spokesman at AmiGBG 2005 (23rd of July 2005), summary from my report:
Quote:
Mr Haglund described the current situation with Apple as a ?marriage break up?. He speculated Apple may be upset by IBM?s various new ?mistresses? (such as for example Sony, Toshiba and Nintendo). He also countered that, unlike what Apple seems to suggest in public, IBM is still leading in terms of the Watts/Performance ratio with regard to their processors compared to available x86 technology and he believes this will likely continue to be so for the foreseeable future. He also explained that the new Cell processor technology includes a simple yet highly clocked PPC compatible processing core, but for software to really take full advantage of the new Cell technology, software needs to be optimized for using the specialized SPEs. He compared the Cell to how the classic Amigas operated, as the more impressive Amiga software took full advantage of its specialized custom chips. He wasn?t only thinking about complex Playstation3 games taking advantage of such technology (for instance dealing with lots more complex and more quantitive collisions), but also with regard to possible desktop orientated usages, like for instance for enhancing the performance of multimedia software or for advanced spreadsheet calculations.
There are some interesting opinions shared in this thread. Both sides have good points and to get OS4 on the PS3 looks now more like a two-edged sword to me.
I must admit that I am less optimistic now, because there are drawbacks that I did not hear about previously.
I find it disappointing that Sony does not allow direct access to the hardware, because they have constructed a layer in between where the OS has to run on. Such a layer conflicts with the Amiga ideals in my opinion. Because Amiga is responsive and sleek it doesn't feel good not to have direct hardware access. It's such an interesting console, why not using it's full potensial?
The game market is another point that does not give me a good feeling in the stomach. In the small Amiga market it was already hard enough for commercial game producers like Hyperion to exist. But with Hyperion, nobody will buy Amiga games anymore, because the PS3 producers are much bigger and can produce much better games! I would be interested to read Hyperions opinion on this. But maybe they have already decided to move out of the games market and fully concentrate on OS4 for Amiga and the embedded market. I am not sure what their silence indicates. It could mean good or bad things. Let's hope everything goes well and many peoples can soon enjoy OS4. It doesn't really matter if on a Samantha or PS3. I wish ACube all the best and hope they will survive even with the Playstation.
The hosted OS can take advantage of 6 SPEs, software needs to be written specificly with having SPE usage in mind, an interesting video showing off Cell's rendering capabilities (40 times faster than a G5 at this, according to IBM):
Yes, of course they can access the CPU how else would the OS run then?
But I read that they can only access the graphics system through the layer, so there can't be a 3D hardware acceleration by the GPU like on the AmigaOne.
The CELL is exciting, but maybe it is a better idea to put it on a real computer mainboard, a real expandable system in a case. It would feel more like an Amiga to us. Hyperion and Amiga would not have to depend on Sony then and we would not have the limitations with the slow GFX through the layer. Are there any mainboards with CELL planned for end-consumers?
Have you thougt about the implications of the commercial game market for OS4. I see there being no need for OS4 titles when you can just boot PS3 ones.
Personally I prefer the old Amiga method of games booting directly from disc, or from a minimal interface like the PS3's XMB.
With regard to gaming I think generally speaking PS3 games are sufficient for me (E-UAE already runs under Linux as well), actually IMO Motorstorm and Resistance rock unlike any recent games we have seen for AmigaOS. If the AmigaOS4 games market was huge then maybe I would be more concerned regarding the gaming implications, but it's actually quite miniscule and apart from some freeware/shareware/ SCUMM games there haven't been many OS4 game releases. I think those would be able to run fine on the AmigaOS4 hosted on the PS3.
Actually these "implications"would also regard any AmigaOS4 user buying any game console next their Amiga.
Even without using the SPEs AmigaOS4 and software would run faster than anything we have now. I am more interested in running software like Pagestream, Candy Factory (v2.0), Hollywood, Photogenics, etc on AmigaOS4 than games.
I think it is safe to say now that we know the limitations of PS3, that AmigaOS4 will not get more games by going cell, but maybe we can get more developers and users that writes useful software for Amiga OS4.
(NutsAboutAmiga)
Basilisk II for AmigaOS4 AmigaInputAnywhere Excalibur and other tools and apps.
As they said, let's walk before running. When OS4.1 will be released i.e. when the gap between OS4 and big OSes will be reduced, we'll be able to think about the rest. Maybe it's too early for now.
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