Couldnt of said it better my self why do you people repeat threads after threads after threads .... just stick to one topic/thread that is allready on the subject of PS3 it really does make life so much more easyer.
I apologise, this thread was my first on the forum, and obviously I did not look well enough for any similar threads here.
However, as the only console mentioned by both Hyperion and Amiga Inc for a potential port,and a console that the Freidans at least seemed excited with the idea of writing code for it, such discussions do have a place on Amiga forums.
Plus Sony was at least talking to Amiga Inc, in financial terms some years back. I doubt if funds would be made available now, but a nexus already exists.
As a market, there is nothing to compare to the PS3 for our OS, everywhere else it would be a hack, but anyone owning a PS3 can install AOS on it - in fact it was the least hassle install of Linux I have ever experienced.
You can ignore the thread afterall.
@Helge
It is true that a PS3 port would mean slightly smaller SAM sales in the Community as it now is. And buying both is not a solution. However, the community is such a small market it could not be profitable in any case, and its growth without some other strategy would be slow and unhealthy commercial-wise.
Consider the other side of the coin.
PS3 owners, who end up liking AOS4 as a computing solution and then go to buy a desktop SAM.
This would be many times greater than the small number of potential community members who opted instead for a PS3.
Plus PS3 can never support what a desktop solution could, except of course if the SAM acted as a domestic service server and the PS3 became a processing hub.
The few thousand community members is a marketing joke, no-doubt available HW would rapidly increase it, bringing many back who have drifted away. But no matter which way it is counted, a few thousand is not a market, and that will kill SAM more than anything.
You have to consider a market that is 3 million now, and probably 10 million by the end of the year. A market which in October will have its own free marketing space (PS Home).
0.1% = 10,000 sales of 10 Million owners, 100,000 if it manages just 1%. I would put 10% as the probable conservative penetration give one year (and probably a much bigger PS3 market) . 1,000,000 OS4's.
I suggest that it is reasonable to assume that 20% of PS3 owners will in the end have one otherOS running on their machines. I would suggest this is a very conservative estimate because the largest number of PS3 owners will be kids still doing school, and hence a natural gravitation to loading an otherOS for school work if nothing else.
I also think the PS3 market will grow as parents become aware that they can also give their kids a full working computer easily along with the games. And hence it is a much more educationally sound investment.
As the price over the years comes down. The PS3 is also likely to be a good choice as a home computer.
As the PS3 gets outdated, it will find markets in third world countries, probably more as a computer than as a games console.
There is great significance in what Sony is doing here., we would be very stupid to miss the boat - especially as OS4 fits the console much better than Linux ever could.
The X11 server, may ironically, be a better form of Linux than Linux itself is for many uses.
Bundling OS4 up as a light Linux is not such a bad idea, and there is another market that has nothing much to do with the PS3 but would be opened up if PS3 provided the greater market to spur even just porting, let alone more native apps.
There was a Q&A session on #Safir on friday the 13th with Rogue.. And this was the answer from him on this issue..
[21:29] Alkaron: Rogue: .. there are much talks about Ps3 And os4? [21:29] Alkaron: and your thoughts on that? [21:29] Rogue: Alkaron: Would make a nice couple [21:30] Alkaron: what you call that... a cliffhanger.? ;) [21:30] Alkaron: Rogue: just yes or no ;) [21:30] Rogue: I prefer Kosh type answer *coughs* [21:30] Alkaron: hehe [21:30] Rogue: Especially when I cannot really answer the question...
I would be appreciate your own impression on this discussion. A summing up of what you think Rogues comments might mean.
It is often such impressions which convey precise meaning rather an translations (there are a couple of comments, that either because of translation or technical reference I did not quite understand).
GregS wrote: Plus Sony was at least talking to Amiga Inc, in financial terms some years back. I doubt if funds would be made available now, but a nexus already exists.
Do you have any proof for that? I also saw a video where McEwen mentioned being a good friend of Bill Gates and Microsoft. Maybe you have confused it with Sony? We all know that Amiga Incs main source of income is developing games for PDAs running Windows CE. So there could be a conflict if they would support Sony's PS3 which is a direct competitor of XBox360. They might risk loosing their developer status for Windows CE and the support they are receiving from Microsoft.
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As a market, there is nothing to compare to the PS3 for our OS, everywhere else it would be a hack, but anyone owning a PS3 can install AOS on it - in fact it was the least hassle install of Linux I have ever experienced.
A hack? So installing OS4 natively on SAM is a hack but installing it virtualized on the PS3 just like with XEN is not a hack? It's funny, because Amigans have always despised virtualization and now we have a company run by Amigans who have developed their own board for OS4, but some peoples call it a hack and say that it's better to run the OS virtualized through a Hypervisor on the PS3 without any direct access to the graphics chips. Only using a framebuffer! This conflicts with my concept of an Amiga.
For installing other OS on PS3, you even need another computer to download the bootloader! The installation of Linux might not be too hard, but there are many shortcomings in the beginning that require some hacking to make it work satisfactory. Many peoples don't know how to do this.
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It is true that a PS3 port would mean slightly smaller SAM sales in the Community as it now is. And buying both is not a solution.
That is not what I said. I said that a PS3 port would mean MUCH smaller SAM sales! At least you have agreed now that your though that many will buy both is not very realistic.
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However, the community is such a small market it could not be profitable in any case, and its growth without some other strategy would be slow and unhealthy commercial-wise. But no matter which way it is counted, a few thousand is not a market, and that will kill SAM more than anything.
That would be true if ACUBE would only sell SAM to the OS4 market. But this is not what they are doing. They also want to sell to commercial companies, embedded customers and Linux developers. So the market is not so small as you make it and SAM might be profitable!
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I suggest that it is reasonable to assume that 20% of PS3 owners will in the end have one otherOS running on their machines. I would suggest this is a very conservative estimate because the largest number of PS3 owners will be kids still doing school, and hence a natural gravitation to loading an otherOS for school work if nothing else.
You have a very optimistic view of the amount of peoples running "other OS" and you also have a very optimistic view about the schoolkids who are interested to work with Linux or pay much more for OS4. Currently there is no indication that 20% will be reached. Maybe a number of peoples will try it, but then they will not use it instead of their main computer because of the limitations.
Some examples: There is not much DVD-playing software, many codecs for playing videos are missing, you cannot play youtube videos, there is no acrobat reader, flash-player or java-plugin. Many drivers for printers and scanners are missing because they only exists for x86 and not PPC. You need to be very brave to use the PS3 instead of your normal PC and this stept needs to be well though out! It will be even more difficult to SELL an OS that is more limited than Linux to the peoples. You need to convince them about it. You need all the apps that are currently not there to convince maybe a few of them. Otherwise they won't pay 200$ on top of the expensive PS3 to buy Amigaos.
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The X11 server, may ironically, be a better form of Linux than Linux itself is for many uses.
We have some misunderstandings which should be easy to clear up.
I have no proof of anything except what was said by Amiga Inc at various stages. The story, right at the beginning was that Sony was one of the companies willing to back Amiga Inc, this was before the great stock market plunge on eCompanies. Sony I believe, then decided otherwise.
Was it made up? There was probably something and in those days Sony was looking and getting behind a good many things, so it is likely. By the way it is not improbable meeting and knowing Bill Gates (despite everything he remains a geek of sorts). The Microsoft connection was also an area that Sony was looking towards then as well, and of course Amiga Inc was sniffing there PDA wise at a later date.
However, the Sony connection is by this time is a fairly cold trail. But also Sony PS3 wise have been throwing very wide nets, they are backing this thing big time. -------------- As for the Hack remark - I meant in terms of consoles like Xbox, not SAM. I am sorry I did not make myself clearer.
It is true that Sony is not supporting any third party OSes, but the download even of the bootloader can be done through the PS3 browser without any PC involvement (3gigs of Yellow Dog, this is not very practical) A simple USB stick should be enough for AOS within the PS3 without requiring a PC of any sort. -------------- Helge I am sorry for distorting things here. I think especially with SAM coming first, the actual effect of a PS3 port will be fairly minimal. We will have to differ on estimates of the effect.
But if these things happen they are out of our control. I just hope we make the best of it by having one follow the other and both done before October. -------------- I know and agree with you that Acube/SAM really relies on selling to industrial consumers.
The Amiga market as it stands is too small for anything much. We have a difference here, I think if AOS4 can break out of the bounds of such a small community, it greatly benefits Acube with its potential industrial consumers and software solutions (which seem Amiga based reading their site material). -------------- On market penetration of otherOS into the "kids" gaming market I beg to differ. As a school teacher, the pressure to have a computer at home for schooling is strong here, in the US and UK, I cannot speak of elsewhere.
Nobody in their right mind would subject a kid to Linux, but AOS4, that is another matter (providing we have the basic apps).
No this market is a new one if simply because there has never been since the old Amiga days at least, a combo computer console. There is no real way of estimate its size, I actually think 20% may well be a low estimate. Based on dealing with school kids and their parents on a daily basis.
The missing software is a big problem, but we will have a period of grace so long as the basic stuff is there (X11 versions perhaps). The PS3 browser is awkward but seems pretty good, that may get us by for a little while. I don't know if JAVA is present (maybe that is a good thing : ) -------------- Forgive my reference to Linux which I consider hell. I have only recently been using the wonderful X11 server on the OS4 (then my monitor died). It seemed to have made this aspect of Linux quite workable. Indeed I am starting to believe that AOS4 might make a better Linux host than Linux itself after usuing it.
I have no proof of anything except what was said by Amiga Inc at various stages. The story, right at the beginning was that Sony was one of the companies willing to back Amiga Inc, this was before the great stock market plunge on eCompanies. Sony I believe, then decided otherwise.
Do you have any references for this? Sorry for my ignorance, I am only asking because I have never heard of this stuffs before. I am not saying that you have made this up. When did it happen and do you think it still has any relevance to the relationship between Sony and Amiga Inc.? I think Amiga Incs relationship with Microsoft is much stronger, especially after the deal with Ruksun. Dealing with Sony could endanger it.
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On market penetration of otherOS into the "kids" gaming market I beg to differ. As a school teacher, the pressure to have a computer at home for schooling is strong here, in the US and UK, I cannot speak of elsewhere.
Yes, but most kids and their families already have a PC at their homes and at their disposal. Usually the parents want the childrens to be exposed to the STANDARD which is available. Their concern is that the children can use what they have learned later during their business career or during their study. I am very sure that parents most of which dont have in depth technical knowledge, will look at the PS3 very critical. They will think about it mainly as a console and they will assume that their childrens will use it for gaming most of the time. They will prefer to buy a PC for their kids (if they not already have one at home), because it looks much more serious to them. The same happened with the Amiga and PC in the early 90ies! Children who wanted to have an Amiga for games had a hard time to convince their parents who thought about it mainly as a games computer! I remember some friends who received a PC with CGA graphics for christmas although they had put an Amiga on their wish list! The parents argued that it would be more stable and allow them to better word processing for school homework and such. So what am I trying to say? It is not important what the PS3 can do, but what kind of impression the parents get about the PS3. In all department stores they can see the PS3 as a gaming console. But on the other hand they hear everywhere, and maybe know from their own job, that applications like Word, Excel and Powerpoint are a standard and that those run on "PCs". This will influence their decision when they will look for a computer for their kids.
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Nobody in their right mind would subject a kid to Linux, but AOS4, that is another matter (providing we have the basic apps).
Why is it another matter? Even if AmigaOS is on par with Linux regarding apps, not many of those peoples will pay $200 extra only to have AmigaOS instead of the free and widespread Linux. Please be realistic. They don't know Amigaos. They have maybe heard about Linux. They have used Windows at their own PC or at their job. Why would they invest $200 to get an unknown and uncommon OS on uncommon hardware that looks like a gaming console instead of something standard which they might already have at home?
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Forgive my reference to Linux which I consider hell.
Ok. Just don't let your personal preference influence your opinions too much. Try to forget about it when you want to look at the bigger picture and try to understand what normal parents or peoples might think about OS4. I am a big supporter of OS4, but I try to remain realistic about the opportunities.
Why is it another matter? Even if AmigaOS is on par with Linux regarding apps, not many of those peoples will pay $200 extra only to have AmigaOS instead of the free and widespread Linux. Please be realistic. They don't know Amigaos. They have maybe heard about Linux. They have used Windows at their own PC or at their job. Why would they invest $200 to get an unknown and uncommon OS on uncommon hardware that looks like a gaming console instead of something standard which they might already have at home?
Hardware associated with games created bad name for Amiga these days, but it isn't a curse anymore though. And PS isn't that uncommon And no, I'm not PS3 fan, just pointing some things out.
[dream] I would better see AOS4 on IBM pSeries , the cheap entry models [/dream]
Jack.
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instead of something standard which they might already have at home?
Amiga spirit these days was "something non standard and not like the stuff ppl had at home". Unfortunately, it's over
"the expression, 'atonal music,' is most unfortunate--it is on a par with calling flying 'the art of not falling,' or swimming 'the art of not drowning.'. A. Schoenberg
Nobody in their right mind would subject a kid to Linux
My 2 years old son is subjected to Linux, almost on daily basis. Educational stuff that packaged with Debian is cool (the kid knows penguins mainly from there) And my wife is using linux and find it higly productive (she develops and performs CFD calcullations), and she isn't Linux fangirl. It just works when setup correctly. (However it doesn't prove that I'm in my right mind. )
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Forgive my reference to Linux which I consider hell.
They say about Unix (also true about Linux): Unix is not user unfriendly, it's just picky about its friends ...
Anyway, I'm helovah competitor in not liking certain OS, especially when it comes to M$ Windblows
Jack
"the expression, 'atonal music,' is most unfortunate--it is on a par with calling flying 'the art of not falling,' or swimming 'the art of not drowning.'. A. Schoenberg
My 2 years old son is subjected to Linux, almost on daily basis. Educational stuff that packaged with Debian is cool (the kid knows penguins mainly from there) And my wife is using linux and find it higly productive (she develops and performs CFD calcullations), and she isn't Linux fangirl. It just works when setup correctly. (However it doesn't prove that I'm in my right mind. )
Thank you for sharing this first-hand experience. I think many opinions about Linux comes from the experiences that people made with it some years ago. At that time it was not very user-friendly. But it has changed A LOT! The latest Linux distributions are very easy to use and the package managers make it very easy to download and install knew softwares. I have seen that there are also many packages for educational purposes.
Another advantage of Linux when used for kids is the user policies and user right management. So you can limit their actions and what they can do. You don't have to fear that they will break the OS, run shooter games or that they will look at your photo collection. You can restrict their user policies so that they can only run educational software and run games with penguins that don't have any guns.
PS3 on aw, PS3 on amigans, PS3 on a.org. I hope I am proven wrong and you lot get OS4 on PS3 because you must all have RSI the amount of crap you have typed about it....
If only I had a thread delete button, oh wait I ha.... (just kidding, I don't care PS3 is white noise to me now!)
Go on someone, go on 3cag.net and start a PS3 thread.... (patting the poor animal on the head), that's a good numb skull....
@A1200 Well, let me see I posted here and on AmigaWorld, only here did I start a thread on the topic.
Your estimate of the quality of what I have written, is of course your own privilege to state.
What I don't understand, and fail to see, is why the possibility of spreading the OS to a whole new generation should cause such angst.
I did not make the suggestion, it has been in the official announcements a few times at least.
So why participate in thread only to bag it?
Aside from possible loss of SAM sales, just what is the nub of opposition to running OS4 on Cell in a box that already has been sold in its millions?
This I find unfathomable.
Please explain. Seriously I find this opposition, for unstated reasons beyond, rational comprehension.
At 100 euros which seems to be the OS price for the immediate future, a few thousand sales would hansomely pay back the expense of porting it, anything over that would be profit.
Just what are the undesirable effects of such a port in the long term?
It seems that is kinda what Amiga Inc. has in mind from thier webpage, if infact, that is anything to go by.
Quite simply, I have just gotten a PS3 and it is everything the old Amiga was to me. Cutting edge technology in a small package with everything I need with a couple exceptions:
1. it has no easy to use OS.....or at least interface such as workbench.
2. it has no keyboard and mouse control is odd
3. I cant "see" it on my network neighborhood (shudder, I hate these MS terms but gotta live with MS) but that might be a problem with me rather than the PS3
AmigaOS on the PS3 to bring these elements together would simply rock, you simply do not need the kind of bloatware that is linux\windows\mac
I do believe that this networking issue needs to be addressed. I cannot share my files on the PS3 with my laptop or box, nor can I share my stuff on the PC with the PS3. The windows system is fine, but seems to run on a distributed network system rather than a file server\client system so you end up with files all over the place and organizeation is a mess.
The file server idea (and not to mention internet gateway and print server) is Ideal if done right. All files can be in one place to make organizeation easier, and if I want to play music from my PS3 which is hooked through my surround system in the living area I can.If I want to watch a blueray on my laptop in the study I can(without having bluray drive IN my laptop) and so on.
In this function the server must be extremely low power for 24/7 operation, stable, responsive and have some major throughput.
I think your idea has merit, but need AOS4 on both PS3 and some hardware of our own first.
Logitech do a wireless keyboard with built in touch pad for the machine, and I believe a usb keyboard will work, and prob a usb mouse. I have the ext hdd i back up from other machines onto and that works fine and i can accesss all the files :)
Sven Harvey Amiga Mart in Micro Mart (in 2 out of 4 issues on average with a following wind)
If YOU could just stick to the topic instead of whining about "all" the PS3 threads that would be nice. It might even help reduce the number of PS3 threads on the different forums. Is it a problem to you that some people are interested in the combination of OS4 and PS3?
The title of this thread says what it's all about.. if you are not interested in discussing PS3+OS4 as a combination why enter the thread?
This thread CAN'T be a real problem to anyone, but the lack of respect for the author of the thread annoys me. I can see a lot of irrelevant bit..... going on here that should actually have been deleted by the mod IMHO .
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